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is this digital solution a way to replace cd/dvd player - Page 3

post #31 of 41
Aos;

Did you build your own elastic buffer? If so, this is very impressive work. How big is your buffer?

Actually, I don't understand why elastic store for audio is so expensive. This is a very common function in digital communication chip and does not take a lot of gates to implement.
post #32 of 41
Thread Starter 
this is getting really tehnical now

ok how is this reacts in real life listening guys... would be nice if someone compared hiend cdplayer vs computer.

thanx for all the entries...

remeber to keep it healty
post #33 of 41
Miziq, a lot of people on this board use an ART DI/O with their computers. This is exactly the same DAC that many people use with their standalone stereo systems as well, so it's fair to say that the sound from a good computer rig can be the same as the sound from a good standalone rig.
post #34 of 41
Quote:
Originally posted by markjia
Your point that TAE does exact bit-to-bit extraction is false.
Then the guys who wrote it were lying? Look, I'm willing to believe that EAC does a "better" job of extracting audio than TAE. My point was simply that a "lack of documentation" is not a convincing argument that TAE isn't doing similar extraction with verification. You're just assuming it doesn't. Maybe the guys who wrote it weren't being honest, but it sure seems like hearing something from the developer should have more credence than making assumptions based on a lack of documentation, no?


Quote:
All it does is extract audio tracks from audio CDs just like any other CD extraction program, the only difference from some other programs is that it does error correction.
That statement directly contradicts itself. The reason it doesn't extract audio just like any other program is because it does error correction.


Quote:
Proof of this is that the audio extracted from the CD is stored in Sound Designer II format (according to SoundApp).
First, TAE stores files in AIFF format, not Sound Designer II format. SoundApp is giving you the name of an application that can create AIFF fields; that's much different than it being saved in Sound Designer II format, which is proprietary.

But more importantly, what "format" the file is stored it doesn't prove anything in terms of how much error correction occurs or how accurate the extraction process is (see below).


Quote:
That's why the extracted files can be played by any program.
That's simply not true. The reason the files can be played by any program is because they're AIFF files -- the Mac equivalent of an uncompressed WAV file. In fact, if a file was saved as a Sound Designer II file, most audio apps wouldn't be able to play it.


Quote:
What I'm talking about is a program that copies every single bit off a CD track, including errors, bad blocks and the like. Those tracks are not usable by any program, all you can do with them is write them back onto a new CD, exactly as it was originally (at least according the your CD reader). In order to play the audio, it has to be extracted again.
I don't think you really understand how audio is being stored by these various applications. EAC does not do a better job of extracting audio because of the file format in which it stores data. It does a better job of extracting audio because of the way in which it extracts. Once the data is extracted, as long as the resulting data file does not use audio compresion, the "format" is irrelevant. It could be stored in an AIFF file, a WAV file, or a text file of 1s and 0s. The data is identical, and the data format is irrelevant.


Quote:
Think about it, if you're saying that TAE can extract a CD's track bit-for-bit and thereby creating 100% perfect extractions from CDs (assuming the media and drive are of sufficient quality), then don't you think there would be more talk of it, considering that no other program dares to make this claim (including EAC)?
No, I wouldn't expect that, because it's a Mac-only program. You rarely see "more talk of" great Mac applications iTunes is by far the best MP3 player app on the market, for any platform, but you don't see Windows people talking about how great it is That's in no way saying that TAE is better than (or possibly even as good as) EAC. I'm just saying that as a Mac application, you're not going to hear much about it.
post #35 of 41
markjia,

bit-by-bit extraction is apparently too much to ask of ANY software on current CDROM drives, even in theory. See this post I made in www.hydrogenaudio.org. In response to my question (you'd have to read it to see what it was ) the first poster said that the MMC read commands do not support this kind of recording, and the second poster said that even if you could record the errors, you can't burn a CD bit by bit, errors and all
post #36 of 41
MacDEF,

I'm not quite sure how we are in disagreement...all i was saying is that TAE will not do a 100% perfect job of CD audio extraction, and that EAC does a better approximation. You said yourself, "I'm willing to believe that EAC does a "better" job of extracting audio than TAE".

I'm not using that lack of documentation as an excuse. All it means is that there is no proof directly from Adaptec exactly how it extracts the audio. All anyone can do is draw conclusions based on the facts given, and base their beliefs on that (the manner in which I have developed my belief was described previously).

As for the "Sound Designer II" issue, that's was my mistake. I misremeber the formats made by Toast and TAE. When you make a disc image from Toast of an audio CD, it is stored in Sound Designer II format. Though either way, it's still the same reasoning regarding the re-encoding of the audio cd.

When I'm talking about the difference in formats, I'm refering to audio files, and non-audio files. The program I'm talking about does not create audio files of any sort. It is just the raw data stored on the CD. The difference btw the track images that this program creates is not like the differences btw WAV and AIFF files. These images are the complete picture of the track, including erranous data and bad blocks.

I too am also a member of the Mac community (i grew up with a Mac), so I realize the lack of exposure Mac programs get. Adaptec makes some exceptional products, both software and hardware. I don't doubt that TAC is a great program; Toast is still my favorite CD burning program. All I'm saying is that it's not perfect, and that EAC does a more accurate job (though it's not perfect either).


Joe Bloggs,

The people posting messages on the other forum seem to know what they are talking about, so I won't argue with them. Perhaps the capability of burning all parts of a CD (including the errors) is more than what is really possible. But what I do know is that the program I am referring to will burn more than what Toast (and any other mac program I know of) is capable of. For one thing, it can duplicate Sony Playstation CDs, which Toast cannot. Sony fills their CDs with bad blocks deliberately (in an attempt to prevent duplication). As a result, toast is not able to handle these CDs.
post #37 of 41
miziq,

As far as CDP vs. computer goes, i think both can do equally good jobs (computer based systems might cost a bit more when you really get high end)...it's just a matter of how much you want to spend. In the high end spectrum of computer based audio, you will be paying for a lot of unnecessary features like mixers, eq, etc.
post #38 of 41
markjia:

I promise I'm not trying to just argue here

But this comment about Toast 5 is from an interview with the Roxio Product Manager for Toast:

Quote:
"It'll also do a bit for bit, or raw mode, copy of any CD," said Nemechek, enabling users to produce backups of CDs that older versions of Toast may previous have balked at. Nemechek cited PlayStation CD-ROMs and karaoke CDs as two examples of discs that can be duplicated using Toast 5 Titanium's raw mode copying feature.

And this, from the Toast FAQ on the Roxio website:

Quote:
Q: Can Toast make backup copies of PlayStation and Karaoke CDs?
A. Yes, Toast can also copy certain protected discs, such as PlayStation and Karaoke CDs for backup purposes only.
Have you used Toast 5/Titanium yet?
post #39 of 41
Alright, my mistake. I guess my comments are only valid for toast 4.x. I never really used toast 5 extensively (soon after it came out, I switched my SCSI devices over to my PC), so I guess I never fully explored it's abilities.

Just let me confirm that we have agreed on the other points (at least the main ones): TAE does a better job at extracting CD audio than most other programs, but not as well as EAC. No extraction program is capable of doing 100% accurate extraction (assuming the drive is not capable of doing so on the first attempt, as Plextor drives claim).

If I can find the time, I will try to do an extensive comparison of the CD extraction abilities of the various programs with different drives...at least then we would have some actual evidence.
post #40 of 41
Thread Starter 
dear markija and macdeff

i would like to thak both of your for your effort to bring the truth out.
ill go with toast and when i can probably in september ill try to compare my ibook mac with some digital out card and hiend cdplayer with some old audiophile freaks and my humble pair of ears

i really want to see / listen what this mean in real situation and let ears be the judge. from my expireance i readed lots lots lots did i say lots
of articles in years and when going out and testing the products i was wondering what the hell they talking about

at the and the ears are the judge and i really need that kind of argument...

its just that im totaly keen on hitech (if it can be called so) and want to engage my loving mac into audiophile waters. we will se where this leads me /us...

wish you all the best and stay cool as usually
post #41 of 41

Re: is this digital solution a way to replace cd/dvd player

[QUOTE]Originally posted by miziq
[B]before i start i have to say im a lot over internet and this community and people are one of the best and serius forums all over. it is a friendly oriented and really profesional. you guys always try to help it is like one big family and you hooked me up. im addicted darn you

______________________

I feel same way here. My problem is my terrible English and it's limitations to say that...But I feel like this too....
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