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Ray Samuels "The Hornet" Version 2? - Page 3

post #31 of 103
Quote:
I understand that the people who are returning/discussing the Hornet are "doing wrong", and only because they do not wait for the amp to break in properly.
If The Hornet requires 300 hours of burn-in time before it reaches its full potential (and therefore is finally worthy of a real evaluation), then RSA's return policy should be modified to reflect this. The return policy as posted on the RSA website reads:

"You can try the Ray Samuels Audio Products in the comfort of your
own home for a period of 7 days with no obligations."

There doesn't appear to be any exception to this policy noted for The Hornet. I'm one of those people who did "wrong" by returning my Hornet and discussing my impressions of it before the amp was (apparently) burned in properly. 300 hours / 24 hours = 12.5 days of CONTINUOUS USE for "proper" burn-in. Given this information, I don't know how the manufacturer expects a customer to get a real idea of how the product will eventually sound if the amp has to be returned within 7 days of delivery to be eligable for a refund. It would also be helpful to the potential buyer of The Hornet if they were made aware of the 300 hour burn-in requirement before purchasing.
post #32 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpippel
There doesn't appear to be any exception to this policy noted for The Hornet. I'm one of those people who did "wrong" by returning my Hornet and discussing my impressions of it before the amp was (apparently) burned in properly. 300 hours / 24 hours = 12.5 days of CONTINUOUS USE for "proper" burn-in. Given this information, I don't know how the manufacturer expects a customer to get a real idea of how the product will eventually sound if the amp has to be returned within 7 days of delivery to be eligable for a refund. It would also be helpful to the potential buyer of The Hornet if they were made aware of the 300 hour burn-in requirement before purchasing.

Personally, I find the policy kind of funny as well. If a manufacturer thinks that it needs 300 hours of burn in, then the policy should be atleast a couple days after that point, so that a the buyer can get to the burn in value (assuming they burn it in for 200-300 hours (whatever the figure is, it seem to have changed)). Personally, I'm finding that the burn in actually made me like the sound less to a degree. But yet, IMO, if I wanted the more laid back sound I would have gotten the SR-71.... However in my case I'm well beyond the return period so I'm just unlucky...

It also doesn't really help that he Hornet isn't even really listed on the RSA website.
post #33 of 103
Dpippel, what you say makes sense. The problem is one learns these things as one goes along, eg, about needing 300hrs for burn in. Also, while I can't speak for Ray and haven't asked him specifically, I feel sure he would honor a return even if one waited for 300hrs and still wasn't satisfied. He has made a general statement on the original sponsored Hornet thread that he would give a refund to anyone not satisfied. I also feel pretty sure he would sell you another Hornet with original sound allowing you sufficient time to judge whether to keep it as is or modify to the mellower new sound. That would be my expectation. Why don't you ask him? He is such a nice guy as well as talented amp designer.
post #34 of 103
The system wouldn't let me post for 10 minutes, then did it twice.
post #35 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpippel
If The Hornet requires 300 hours of burn-in time before it reaches its full potential (and therefore is finally worthy of a real evaluation), then RSA's return policy should be modified to reflect this.

Given this information, I don't know how the manufacturer expects a customer to get a real idea of how the product will eventually sound if the amp has to be returned within 7 days of delivery to be eligable for a refund. It would also be helpful to the potential buyer of The Hornet if they were made aware of the 300 hour burn-in requirement before purchasing.
Did you ask Ray whether it would be possible to hold onto the amp longer so you could better evaluate it? I have never known Ray to hold strict to any return policy (this is my feeling not anything Ray has told me). I believe he is very generous when it comes to these matters. You may have already discussed all this with Ray. I am only pointing this out so others will not have the same problem.

I don't believe Ray thought that 300 hours burn was necessary when he began shipping. I believe this developed after he began to get feedback from purchasers (again, this is my interpretation of events). I don't think anyone on this board would accuse Ray of not being customer friendly and willing to work with his customers. This no different then the level of customer service from some of the other manufactures.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PFKMan23
Personally, I find the policy kind of funny as well. If a manufacturer thinks that it needs 300 hours of burn in, then the policy should be atleast a couple days after that point, so that a the buyer can get to the burn in value (assuming they burn it in for 200-300 hours (whatever the figure is, it seem to have changed)). Personally, I'm finding that the burn in actually made me like the sound less to a degree. But yet, IMO, if I wanted the more laid back sound I would have gotten the SR-71.... However in my case I'm well beyond the return period so I'm just unlucky...

It also doesn't really help that he Hornet isn't even really listed on the RSA website.
Has anyone had a problem getting ahold of Ray? It seems to me that he returns pm's, email's and phone calls pretty promptly and regularly. While it is a help to others to post info like this in a thread, it really doesn't help the person with the problem. It makes more sense to contact the guy you bought the product from and discuss the issue with him. You may or may not have noticed but Ray doesn't update his website too often. Having said that, he is very accessible to his customers and potential customers. Should he update the site, of course, but I believe he's been busy building amps.

I am not being critical of anyone. It just seems that communication might be the answer to some of the issues being discussed.
post #36 of 103
I'm sure that Ray's a nice guy and his talent as an amp designer/builder is readily apparent. However, at this point I'm done with my amp evaluation for the itme being and have settled on a different product based on the information I had at the time. I will note that when I contacted Ray to arrange the return of my Hornet he did not offer to extend my evaluation period, nor did he mention burn-in time or question my impressions of the amp.
post #37 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpippel
I'm sure that Ray's a nice guy and his talent as an amp designer/builder is readily apparent. However, at this point I'm done with my amp evaluation for the itme being and have settled on a different product based on the information I had at the time. I will note that when I contacted Ray to arrange the return of my Hornet he did not offer to extend my evaluation period, nor did he mention burn-in time or question my impressions of the amp.
I think it's also worth to note that the suggested burn in time has fluctuated. Initially it was only around 100 and now we're talking 300. Morever it doesn't help any of the initial owners by default, because the return time is still well short of the recommended burn in time.

So in effect it's a two fold issue here.
post #38 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpippel
If The Hornet requires 300 hours of burn-in time before it reaches its full potential (and therefore is finally worthy of a real evaluation), then RSA's return policy should be modified to reflect this. The return policy as posted on the RSA website reads:

"You can try the Ray Samuels Audio Products in the comfort of your
own home for a period of 7 days with no obligations."

There doesn't appear to be any exception to this policy noted for The Hornet. I'm one of those people who did "wrong" by returning my Hornet and discussing my impressions of it before the amp was (apparently) burned in properly. 300 hours / 24 hours = 12.5 days of CONTINUOUS USE for "proper" burn-in. Given this information, I don't know how the manufacturer expects a customer to get a real idea of how the product will eventually sound if the amp has to be returned within 7 days of delivery to be eligable for a refund. It would also be helpful to the potential buyer of The Hornet if they were made aware of the 300 hour burn-in requirement before purchasing.
I have cleared this to many that my return policy is & was for the Emmeline RS-1A pre-amp for the high end gear which is shipped burne-in to the buyers.
I have mentioned this in my previous post that 7 days do not apply on the Hornet. I have even exchanged e-mails & talked on the phone with those 4 head-feirs who wanted to return the Hornet regarding the burn-in, & cleared this matter to them regarding the 7 days return policy that does not apply for the Hornet. Sorry if I could have not made my self clear enough.
Ray Samuels
post #39 of 103
tyrion ; I don't want to be polemical in any way , but just want to make you note that's free to discuss here , even and foremost if things are not completely clear and clean and positive ; and even if it is around an RSA product ..

I think it's also free to question , and in public too , about a product and about policies , when you have reasons to do it . And I think you understand it's not to offend someone .. just to clear things better , it's even in the interest of the seller to clear things and to be clear .
Moreover we're on a pubblic forum , and it seems to me Ray partecipate in normally , and is quite appreciated as a polite man other then as an amp builder .

moreover the Hornet is a quite solid product and is having a really big success..
just don't see the problem when discussion is polite , and I definitely don't see why and where there's something to defend ..
post #40 of 103
Ray,

So then for the record, what is the return time for the Hornet? I ask moreso for future Hornet owners so that they are aware that the policy is different. And I also ask to alleviate a stress for myself.
post #41 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by boodi
tyrion ; I don't want to be polemical in any way , but just want to make you note that's free to discuss here , even and foremost if things are not completely clear and clean and positive ; and even if it is around an RSA product ..

I think it's also free to question , and in public too , about a product and about policies , when you have reasons to do it . And I think you understand it's not to offend someone .. just to clear things better , it's even in the interest of the seller to clear things and to be clear .
Moreover we're on a pubblic forum , and it seems to me Ray partecipate in normally , and is quite appreciated .

Moreover the Hornet is , as I understand , a quite solid product and have had a big success..

just don't see the problem when discussion is polite , and I don't see why and where there's something to defend ..
I think I've stated pretty clearly that I understand the discussion. I have no problem with the way the discussion has taken place (not that anyone cares what I think ). I just feel that contacting Ray is the way to deal with a particular problem, especially if it's a customer service problem. Posting the problem helps others, assuming the post is well intended and not just meant to be an attack on someone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpippel
I will note that when I contacted Ray to arrange the return of my Hornet he did not offer to extend my evaluation period
I'm sorry but I find this hard to believe.
post #42 of 103
After reviewing this thread I was pretty much leaning towards getting the mod done, as I really like the SR-71 sound. But now, after reading further the responses about burn-in and Ray's comments I've turned 180-degrees and will be keeping my Hornet as is - at least until I believe I've achieved the 300 hour level.

Problem for me is, I don't 'plug and burn' my Hornet. I just listen to it - leaving it alone burning in on a table top somewhere is just too wierd a concept for me. So I guess I'll just have to suffer through this crumby pre-burn-in sound (joke ) until one day I turn it on after passing the magical 300 threshold. Then watch out!

You see, for me this amp already sounds terrific. I'll wait to hear how the improvements develop, which at my rate may take a year .
post #43 of 103
From what I've seen there seems to be mass confusion over this issue so I feel it's benefical to post it the forums. if it's a more personal issue then, of course, I'd advise handing it privately.

That said, given that the 300 hours of burn in time seems to be a newer figure, I feel that we should give dpippel the benefit of the doubt. Personaly, I'd say given the natural course of things, if you're going to say that it needs 300 hours I'd give the minimum return period to be 21 days to allow for adequate burn in and then evaluation.
post #44 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by PFKMan23
From what I've seen there seems to be mass confusion over this issue so I feel it's benefical to post it the forums. if it's a more personal issue then, of course, I'd advise handing it privately.

That said, given that the 300 hours of burn in time seems to be a newer figure, I feel that we should give dpippel the benefit of the doubt. Personaly, I'd say given the natural course of things, if you're going to say that it needs 300 hours I'd give the minimum return period to be 21 days to allow for adequate burn in and then evaluation.
I think, if you asked Ray, as he has posted at least twice in this thread, that the 7 days does not apply. I don't believe that Ray would not have extended the return period if asked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vranswer
After reviewing this thread I was pretty much leaning towards getting the mod done, as I really like the SR-71 sound. But now, after reading further the responses about burn-in and Ray's comments I've turned 180-degrees and will be keeping my Hornet as is - at least until I believe I've achieved the 300 hour level.

Problem for me is, I don't 'plug and burn' my Hornet. I just listen to it - leaving it alone burning in on a table top somewhere is just too wierd a concept for me. So I guess I'll just have to suffer through this crumby pre-burn-in sound (joke ) until one day I turn it on after passing the magical 300 threshold. Then watch out!

You see, for me this amp already sounds terrific. I'll wait to hear how the improvements develop, which at my rate may take a year
I am the same way. I burn mine as I use it. Since it's mostly for portable use, it is burning slowly but I've had no complaints from the beginning.
post #45 of 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Samuels
I have cleared this to many that my 7 days return policy is & was for the Emmeline RS-1A pre-amp for the high end gear which is shipped burne-in to the buyers.
I have mentioned this in my previous post that 7 days do not apply on the Hornet. I have even exchanged e-mails & talked on the phone with those 4 head-feirs who wanted to return the Hornet regarding the burn-in, & cleared this matter to them regarding the 7 days return policy that does not apply for the Hornet. Sorry if I could have not made my self clear enough.
Thank you for clearing this up Ray. Could you tell us how long the evaluation period is for the Hornet?
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