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post #121 of 167
1/3/07 at 12:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glod View Post
Perhaps Mikhail tuned a plate voltage (Va) suitable for both? I assume you are talking about the two output tubes.
Yep, for the output tubes. I think sacd lover posted about this in the original Singlepower tuberolling thread - apparently Mikhail did away with the need for a voltage switch! That was 4 or 5 months ago - is M. still making the voltage switch, and if so, why? And what is the plate voltage suitable for both - perhaps the 400VA that markmaxx has?

Quote:
Originally Posted by glod
Well - there went my hypothesis that the SE feature really was about adjustable plate voltage and sometimes also plate current Does it have the other features in a standard MPX3 SLAM Se package, like the Supra transformer and filtration, Black Gates cathode caps, stepped attenuator and Solen 1 power capacitor? Does it also say SE on the front? I don't know if any MPX3 SLAM do.
Yes, everything that you mention - Supra tranny, filtration, Black Gates, stepped attenuator, Solen power cap... it does NOT say SE on the front, but as you say, I don't think any of them do. Mikhail sold it to me (on the phone) as an SE, and said these were his recommended options for the model. The only thing I didn't get, and wish I got, was a Neutrik locking jack, just 'cause I think they look cool.

Let us know if you find anything else out about the SLAM SE models without voltage switch, Glod... it seems odd to me that Mikhail would still be making them after he told me (and apparently markmaxx) that we didn't need them...

Patrick
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post #122 of 167
1/3/07 at 10:01am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by J Harris View Post
Yep, for the output tubes. I think sacd lover posted about this in the original Singlepower tuberolling thread - apparently Mikhail did away with the need for a voltage switch! That was 4 or 5 months ago - is M. still making the voltage switch, and if so, why? And what is the plate voltage suitable for both - perhaps the 400VA that markmaxx has?



Yes, everything that you mention - Supra tranny, filtration, Black Gates, stepped attenuator, Solen power cap... it does NOT say SE on the front, but as you say, I don't think any of them do. Mikhail sold it to me (on the phone) as an SE, and said these were his recommended options for the model. The only thing I didn't get, and wish I got, was a Neutrik locking jack, just 'cause I think they look cool.

Let us know if you find anything else out about the SLAM SE models without voltage switch, Glod... it seems odd to me that Mikhail would still be making them after he told me (and apparently markmaxx) that we didn't need them...

Patrick
There is no doubt in my mind you have a SE - and so does markmaxx as well, I think we can conclude. I think the MPX3 SLAM SE has to be seen as a package. It's novelty is based on the adaptation to 6BL7GT/6BX7GT tubes like PFKMan23 also concludes in post #105, but the very SE label only makes sense if the amp has a majority of the options mentioned.

Most Singlepower amps are in one or many ways unique. The sonic differences are probably relatively small, but the fact remains: they are tailored products, why the relevance of discrete model names can be criticized. Perhaps it would be better if every Singlepower amp got a personal name, just like the Stradivarius made instruments. Still, it is desirably to seek a categorization of the many SP amplifier versions next to the pure base models on the their site. That was the original reason behind this thread. In hindsight, one could then, actually, call Earl's Supra 392 a Supra (SLAM) SE. If more Supras with raised plate voltages are ordered, one might suggest Earl to start calling his beloved Supra 392 just that. The suggestion wins more reason when one sees that a Singlepower MPX3 SLAM SE, awfully a lot, looks like a Supra with different plate voltage and smaller power capacitors. And, if the voltage switch is not necessary for the SE label...

About that Neutrik locking jack. I have it too but I am not sure of the benefits. Perhaps it is better isolated than a classic one. I don't really have any use for the very locking feature. I actually find it slightly awkward.
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post #123 of 167
1/3/07 at 12:47pm
I really wouldn't be so quick to assume that either amp is a SE. It is possible to have certain modifications done that are included on the SE but yet not have it be a SE. And I will also disagree that the voltage switch is unnecessary. There are certain tubes that simply sound better at different voltages. Biasing an amp up can take it some of the way but raising (or lowering) the plate voltage really does make a difference.

Moreover some tubes are meant to be run at certain voltages. For example, the 5687s really aren't meant to be run at the higher voltage. The plates grow brighter and are run harder but really are meant to be run at the lower voltage. This is the similar case with the 6sn7GT. From my perspective unless you have a large supply of either tube, the wise choice would be to run it at the lower voltage.
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post #124 of 167
1/3/07 at 2:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PFKMan23 View Post
I really wouldn't be so quick to assume that either amp is a SE. It is possible to have certain modifications done that are included on the SE but yet not have it be a SE.
Yes, that was what I was trying to say. After the latest posts, I am of the opinion that the needed options to make e.g. a MPX3 a SE are identified. However, considered that almost all SP are customized, I think we would miss the objective of this thread by consequently exclude any 6BLX7/6BX7GT model that does not have one of the options. After all, the tailored solution for every customer is a great deal of the satisfaction of a Singlepower amplifier.: With a too stringent categorization, we would have just about the same situation as the SP site is presenting, and very many question marks from users and other enthusiasts. I say, unless Mikhail says otherwise, a Singlepower SE needs to have a 6BLX7/6BX7GT plate voltage tuning and a majority of the options defined earlier in this thread. If somebody thinks he can live without the stepped attenuator, or likes to have a Solen III instead of a Solen I capacitor installation, that would not make his amp a non-SE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PFKMan23 View Post
And I will also disagree that the voltage switch is unnecessary. There are certain tubes that simply sound better at different voltages. Biasing an amp up can take it some of the way but raising (or lowering) the plate voltage really does make a difference.
I have no personal experience with that, but it sounds logical to me. I really like the idea with adjustable voltage, and current, but now that Mikhail sells SE amps without these features, I cannot conclude anything else than that the SE feature is about a an option package, in which the main one is a 6BLX7/6BX7GT tuning.

Once again, this thread is not meant to be a Singlepower showroom. I have never spoken to them about the content of what I have been writing, and I do not plan to either. My only sources are WWW.SINGLEPOWER.COM, users and what they are posting in this forum.
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post #125 of 167
1/3/07 at 3:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glod View Post
There is no doubt in my mind you have a SE - and so does markmaxx as well, I think we can conclude. I think the MPX3 SLAM SE has to be seen as a package. It's novelty is based on the adaptation to 6BL7GT/6BX7GT tubes like PFK23man also concludes in post #105, but the very SE label only makes sense if the amp has a majority of the options mentioned.

Most Singlepower amps are in one or many ways unique. The sonic differences are probably relatively small, but the fact remains: they are tailored products, why the relevance of discrete model names can be criticized. Perhaps it would be better if every Singlepower amp got a personal name, just like the Stradivarius made instruments. Still, it is desirably to seek a categorization of the many SP amplifier versions next to the pure base models on the their site. That was the original reason behind this thread. In hindsight, one could then, actually, call Earl's Supra 392 a Supra (SLAM) SE. If more Supras with raised plate voltages are ordered, one might suggest Earl to start calling his beloved Supra 392 just that. The suggestion wins more reason when one sees that a Singlepower MPX3 SLAM SE, awfully a lot, looks like a Supra with different plate voltage and smaller power capacitors. And, if the voltage switch is not necessary for the SE label...

About that Neutrik locking jack. I have it too but I am not sure of the benefits. Perhaps it is better isolated than a classic one. I don't really have any use for the very locking feature. I actually find it slightly awkward.


The only problem I guess we are always going to have is Singlepower is a custom amp builder, and consequently, some amps are one offs .... or have custom features that up until that time have never been incorporated in any other SP amp. The other problem is when SP finds a better way to improve the sound quality or functionality the better way is incorporated almost immediately.

I am a guilty party here too as I dont know how to refer to an amp sometimes so I tend to name them to give them an identity. The Supra 392 was just a name coined to represent the higher operating voltage of the optimized 6bx7gt/6bl7gta tubes and because this amp only uses the 6bx7/6bl7 output tubes types. This amp is still basically a stock Supra. I knew there was not going to be another model like the 392 so I purposely picked something unique about this amp; hence the 392 to designate the unusual operating voltage.

The Supra 392 doesnt have the tube flexibility and the same operating parameters as the SLAM SE. The amp is fixed bias running at the edge of the 6bx7gt's capability and can not accept other output tubes. I cant even use the newer 2c51 or 6414 series in this amp because the extra gain will overdrive and fry the output tubes. I have to stick with the typical gain tubes having an amplification factor = to < 20. So, this amp realy doesnt have much in common with the SLAM SE. Even though this amp did lead to the developement of the SLAM SE .... the 392 is truly a one off.

The new Extreme was a result of the developement of the amp I call the "BEAST". Now this amp would be a better candidate to be called a Supra-Extreme because these amps do have the same basic circuit except for the scaled down power supply of the Extreme and lower voltage power transformer specific to the Extreme .... which is an actual improvement in the Extreme. So, a Supra-Extreme is a very doable version of the Supra or Extreme, but again, which is it? These amps would be easily distinguished from all the other SP amps because of the circuit, lower operating voltage and choice of output tubes.
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post #126 of 167
1/3/07 at 5:32pm

SLAM SE is special

I guess I have a SLAM SE. I am currently trying to figure how high a gain I can have on the signal tube to drive the 6BL7s and 6SN7s. The 6414 works; next I will move up to a 12AV7 and then the 5965 and then the E180CC. I have a feeling that is the end, since the 5751 is too noisy with these two output tubes.

The virtue of the SLAM SE is that it has many, many potential "voices" to match your mood and musical tastes. This amp picks up small changes in sound due to rolling the type and brand of tube in any position. I can even hear the difference between a KenRad Vt-231 and an RCA GreyGlass, half-deaf as i am.

Also, if you own this amp, you will find out that the most expensive 6SN7s aren't necessarily the best-sounding. (Of course that depends on your preferences for sound).

It's an amazing amp for just this reason: so many voices.
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post #127 of 167
1/3/07 at 5:32pm
My MPX3 is 1 year old it is set up to run the 6BL7GTs in the output but Mikhail sent me 2 addapters to run 5687s in the output and he told me to put the 6SN7 tubes in the output to use as a preamp?

I have a stepped attenuator supra transformer and the output tubes with the 6BL7GT run at 400VA. as I asked Mikhail last week.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl
I cant even use the newer 2c51 or 6414 series in this amp because the extra gain will overdrive and fry the output tubes. I have to stick with the typical gain tubes having an amplification factor = to < 20.
Earl I run all the gain tubes you said your 392 can't run?

(PS this is only posted for fun and info) you guys keep this fun OK! But all I know is what Mikhail tells me. He also talks to us at different levels he talks to me in tearms of sonics like what is important and I tell him there is some dynamic missing and he changes the amp he never tells me what he is changed unless it is alot of money and then something gets a name like ballanced. or supra transformer or my new Supra PLUS. Nothing like he talks to some of you guys who know more about electronics.

So I just ask is my amp a SE? It was the grandfather of the SE for sure.
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post #128 of 167
1/3/07 at 5:41pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sacd lover View Post
The only problem I guess we are always going to have is Singlepower is a custom amp builder, and consequently, some amps are one offs .... or have custom features that up until that time have never been incorporated in any other SP amp. The other problem is when SP finds a better way to improve the sound quality or functionality the better way is incorporated almost immediately.

I am a guilty party here too as I dont know how to refer to an amp sometimes so I tend to name them to give them an identity. The Supra 392 was just a name coined to represent the higher operating voltage of the optimized 6bx7gt/6bl7gta tubes and because this amp only uses the 6bx7/6bl7 output tubes types. This amp is still basically a stock Supra. I knew there was not going to be another model like the 392 so I purposely picked something unique about this amp; hence the 392 to designate the unusual operating voltage.

The Supra 392 doesnt have the tube flexibility and the same operating parameters as the SLAM SE. The amp is fixed bias running at the edge of the 6bx7gt's capability and can not accept other output tubes. I cant even use the newer 2c51 or 6414 series in this amp because the extra gain will overdrive and fry the output tubes. I have to stick with the typical gain tubes having an amplification factor = to < 20. So, this amp realy doesnt have much in common with the SLAM SE. Even though this amp did lead to the developement of the SLAM SE .... the 392 is truly a one off.

The new Extreme was a result of the developement of the amp I call the "BEAST". Now this amp would be a better candidate to be called a Supra-Extreme because these amps do have the same basic circuit except for the scaled down power supply of the Extreme and lower voltage power transformer specific to the Extreme .... which is an actual improvement in the Extreme. So, a Supra-Extreme is a very doable version of the Supra or Extreme, but again, which is it? These amps would be easily distinguished from all the other SP amps because of the circuit, lower operating voltage and choice of output tubes.
Your post sums up what I am thinking as well.

I would like to see this thread as one for owners and enthusiasts who like to discuss the developments of SP amps in general. There is an excellent SP Extreme thread already, and one new for tube rolling. Perhaps this thread could be the place for general discussions about past, present and future models, i.e. how current base models could be improved and developed or entirely new one's thought of, and, how somebody’s newly ordered relates to already existing ones?

I think it was a good idea to call that Supra of yours Supra 392. With the explanation, it makes perfectly sense. It is a good description: It is simply a Supra 392 (Va), nothing more - nothing less.

You are not "guilty" of any confusion at all in general IMO. On the contrary. An informed and well-weighted name for a new model in spe, helps others to relate to and understand what it globally is about. And perhaps best of all: a name invites a fruitful and illuminating discussion of what it really is.
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post #129 of 167
1/3/07 at 5:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl
The new Extreme was a result of the developement of the amp I call the "BEAST". Now this amp would be a better candidate to be called a Supra-Extreme because these amps do have the same basic circuit except for the scaled down power supply of the Extreme and lower voltage power transformer specific to the Extreme .... which is an actual improvement in the Extreme. So, a Supra-Extreme is a very doable version of the Supra or Extreme, but again, which is it? These amps would be easily distinguished from all the other SP amps because of the circuit, lower operating voltage and choice of output tubes.
My new amp is a Supra it will be ballanced and it has a switch so I can change from the 6BL7gts in the output stage to the ??????m Circuit and the higher output tubes. I think it has 2 transformers too one for each output circuit!

Lets give it a Name! Supra Extream SE XLR?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Glod
You are not "guilty" of any confusion at all in general IMO. On the contrary. An informed and well-weighted name for a new model in spe, helps others to relate to and understand what it globally is about. And perhaps best of all: a name invites a fruitful and illuminating discussion of what it really is.
Well said!
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post #130 of 167
1/3/07 at 6:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmaxx View Post
My new amp is a Supra it will be ballanced and it has a switch so I can change from the 6BL7gts in the output stage to the ??????m Circuit and the higher output tubes. I think it has 2 transformers too one for each output circuit!

Lets give it a Name! Supra Extream SE XLR?
A bet you wake up early every morning thinking about it.

Supra SE XLR would surely be a candidate name - at least IMHO. Do you know anything about the biasing of the drivers yet; the output tube voltage levels, other options? Two transformers. Really, in one chassis? Tell us more - tell us!
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post #131 of 167
1/3/07 at 6:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glod View Post
A bet you wake up early every morning thinking about it.

Supra SE XLR would surely be a candidate name - at least IMHO. Do you know anything about the biasing of the driver yet; the output tube voltage levels, other options? Two transformers. Really, in one chassis? Tell us more - tell us!
Not too much to tell right now I sent Mikhail an e-mail happy Thanksgiving he emailed me back

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhails-Email
Hi Mark,

It's been busy, but we're getting caught up and are ready to build an amp for you. We've had a good Thanksgiving and spent lots of time with family. Hope your Thanksgiving was fun as well.

The Supra XLR is a great option if you really want to go high end. A well equipped Supra XLR with Black Gate capacitors, V-Caps, quad regulation, Black Gate output capacitors, 6BL7 output tubes, and 6414 driver tubes would run about $XX00.00 This is a unit that would be one of the best for the price/performance ratio. The retail would run $XX00.00 with these options.

An SDS single-ended unit with similar options will be about $X000, and would be an excellent choice as well.

We can also do a balanced MPX3. This would have to be in a larger case (Supra sized), and would be $XX00 for the MPX3 balanced with a Black Gates, dual regulation, high efficiency power supply, and a high power circuit for 6BL7 output tubes.

I can work in an even higher power output section in these models that I've developed in the last month.

Please let me know your thoughts Mark, and let's talk sometime soon.

Thanks,
Mikhail
I desided with Mikhail to go with the Supra and ballanced But the I can work in the new high output part was a compleat surprise he said the week before Christmas, I think I can fit the new Extream circuit in if you want to wait a week or so.

I think it went more like- I think we can work in the new extream circuit but we need another transformer and I need to see if it will fit in the standard supra case.

It is finished he is still tweeking it thats all I know O yea it has some big caps because I like bazooka slam-in kick drums and I like to listen for long periods of time and we need to turn the volume down to make these old ears last a lifetime! And the K340 need lots of power!

I bet Earl knows more about my amp than I do Earl Give it up!

PS. I fall asleep waiting for my new amp I wake up thinking about my new amp and all day I think about my new amp.
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post #132 of 167
1/3/07 at 6:39pm
[QUOTE=markmaxx;2600949]

Earl I run all the gain tubes you said your 392 can't run?

QUOTE]

That is because my Supra 392 is biased much, much higher than your amp. So the voltage in the 392 is high but, in addition, the bias is also very high. Bias refers to the current running through the tube. The only tubes that can take the combination of high voltage and high bias current in the 392 are the 6bx7gt/6bl7gta. The 6/12sn7gta can handle 450 volts on the plate and will work but sound well .... stressed. In my few trials the 6bx7gt/6bl7gta definitely sound much better.

In your amp, if you can run 6sn7's at 400 volts the bias is low. If I tried to run 6sn7gt's or 5687's in the 392 I would fry them in no time. You CAN run 6sn7gta/b's, as mentioned above, in the Supra, because those tubes can handle signifigantly more voltage than the 6sn7gt. But all the power flowing through the tube in this amp makes the tube sound way to fat and thick.

The reason I cant use the 2c51/6414 series etc ... even with say the 6bx7gt's, is because the increased voltage drive from these higher gain tubes pushes even more current through the tube .... tubes which are already running above specs and just below their maximum limits. I put in a 6414 and I get cherry red plates in the 6bx7gt's almost immediately.

Does that make sense?
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post #133 of 167
1/3/07 at 6:51pm
[QUOTE=sacd lover;2601106]
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmaxx View Post

Earl I run all the gain tubes you said your 392 can't run?

QUOTE]

That is because my Supra 392 is biased much, much higher than your amp. So the voltage in the 392 is high but, in addition, the bias is also very high. Bias refers to the current running through the tube. The only tubes that can take the combination of high voltage and high bias current in the 392 are the 6bx7gt/6bl7gta. The 6/12sn7gta can handle 450 volts on the plate and will work but sound well .... stressed. In my few trials the 6bx7gt/6bl7gta definitely sound much better.

In your amp, if you can run 6sn7's at 400 volts the bias is low. If I tried to run 6sn7gt's or 5687's in the 392 I would fry them in no time. You CAN run 6sn7gta/b's, as mentioned above, in the Supra, because those tubes can handle signifigantly more voltage than the 6sn7gt. But all the power flowing through the tube in this amp makes the tube sound way to fat and thick.

The reason I cant use the 2c51/6414 series etc ... even with say the 6bx7gt's, is because the increased voltage drive from these higher gain tubes pushes even more current through the tube .... tubes which are already running above specs and just below their maximum limits. I put in a 6414 and I get cherry red plates in the 6bx7gt's almost immediately.

Does that make sense?
Yes it does. Thanks again Earl.
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post #134 of 167
1/3/07 at 7:00pm
I talked to Mikhail today, my new amp is just about done and will hopefully ship out on Friday. It doesn't have a name so we'll have to come up with a catchy one .
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post #135 of 167
1/3/07 at 7:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tkam View Post
I talked to Mikhail today, my new amp is just about done and will hopefully ship out on Friday. It doesn't have a name so we'll have to come up with a catchy one .

We will need more info.
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