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Bada PH12 vis-a-vis Meixing MC66AE and Lehmann BC - Page 3

post #31 of 529
Thread Starter 
The Bada PH2 has a sound with detail, dynamics, fast transients, and tremendous dynamics - like a good solid state amp. However the sound is greatly altered with tubes selected.


[See page 5 for tube use update]
post #32 of 529
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferbose
Aren't some folks adding OP-amps to the famous RKV nowadays ?
Errr, not quite. The RKV comes with old and slow opamps. What people have been doing is doing a drop-in upgrade to the 637. The stock part is even socketed, so it's an easy task. (Minus the need to solder a stabilizing cap onto the chip, but that's no biggie either.)

Cheers!
Dan
post #33 of 529
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blorton
Errr, not quite. The RKV comes with old and slow opamps. What people have been doing is doing a drop-in upgrade to the 637. The stock part is even socketed, so it's an easy task. (Minus the need to solder a stabilizing cap onto the chip, but that's no biggie either.)

Cheers!
Dan
My bad. Did not realize RKV had OP-amps, knowing it is a push-pull tube design. Its circuit is clearly more complicated than what I could understand. Wish to hear it woth K1000 someday.
post #34 of 529
Thread Starter 
sacd lover: Art... your confusing yourself trying to insist and argue that the amp is OTL. The Bada is not OTL.

Art: The Bada is an OTL design, as the Bada Chief engineer stated in the quote I posted previously, since it does not use a transformer in the output.
Such transformers cause some degradation in sound quality, where the extent of this degradation depends on the quality of the transformer. It is true that the Bada does not use a tubed current output, as you pointed out earlier, and thus it is true that the Bada is not a tubed OTL in regard to the current amplification, but it is an OTL design, both in its voltage amplification and in its current amplification, and thus avoids any degradation in sound quality caused by a transformer in its output.

sacd lover: The huge cap in the Bada probably serves the same purpose of energy storage.... as in the singlepowers.... to prevent power supply sag from occuring during demanding musical passages. Also, experts say OTL lacks dynamics?? Thats just one more stereotype that is not true.... its all in the implementation. My singlepower tube amps have more dynamic punch acroos the entire frequency spectrum than any of my previous solid state headphone amps.

Art: Antique Sound Labs produces a tubed OTL with a switch to select either OTL, for the most natural timbre at the expense of dynamics, or transformer output for better dynamics at the expense to natural timbre because the transformer is in the output. Why then do you say that the OTL design does not have some inherent problem in reproducing dynamics? Perhaps the use of a huge capacitor helps mitigate this deficit in the OTL design, at least to some extent.

The Bada features natural timbre as well as tremendous dynamics, with deep and powerful well-defined bass, and a clean handling of the most loud and complex orchestral crescendos. The huge capacitor it uses greatly contributes to this. I am sure the huge capacitor in the Singlepower Supra likewise makes sonic contributions.
post #35 of 529
Quote:
Originally Posted by drarthurwells
sacd lover: Art... your confusing yourself trying to insist and argue that the amp is OTL. The Bada is not OTL.

Art: The Bada is an OTL design, as the Bada Chief engineer stated in the quote I posted previously, since it does not use a transformer in the output.
Such transformers cause some degradation in sound quality, where the extent of this degradation depends on the quality of the transformer. It is true that the Bada does not use a tubed current output, as you pointed out earlier, and thus it is true that the Bada is not a tubed OTL in regard to the current amplification, but it is an OTL design, both in its voltage amplification and in its current amplification, and thus avoids any degradation in sound quality caused by a transformer in its output.

sacd lover: The huge cap in the Bada probably serves the same purpose of energy storage.... as in the singlepowers.... to prevent power supply sag from occuring during demanding musical passages. Also, experts say OTL lacks dynamics?? Thats just one more stereotype that is not true.... its all in the implementation. My singlepower tube amps have more dynamic punch acroos the entire frequency spectrum than any of my previous solid state headphone amps.

Art: Antique Sound Labs produces a tubed OTL with a switch to select either OTL, for the most natural timbre at the expense of dynamics, or transformer output for better dynamics at the expense to natural timbre because the transformer is in the output. Why then do you say that the OTL design does not have some inherent problem in reproducing dynamics? Perhaps the use of a huge capacitor helps mitigate this deficit in the OTL design, at least to some extent.

The Bada features natural timbre as well as tremendous dynamics, with deep and powerful well-defined bass, and a clean handling of the most loud and complex orchestral crescendos. The huge capacitor it uses greatly contributes to this. I am sure the huge capacitor in the Singlepower Supra likewise makes sonic contributions.




Are you really that dense Art? Can you name a headphone amp that uses solid state output devices and has an output transformer. Of course not... they dont need an output transformer. But tubes amps can be either OTL or transformer coupled depending on the application. So OTL refers to a tube amp thats.... output transformerless. Your just playing semantics.

ASL believes their transformer design has more dynamics than their OTL design.... so all OTL amps have trouble with dynamics? Thats quite a reach dont you think? As I already told you, my Singlepower amps have better dynamics than any of my previous solid state amps... and I have owned several. Go listen to a Singlepower SLAM ppx3 or mpx3 and then tell me an OTL amp has inherent dynamic limitations.

Lastly, I dont think you have a clue what the huge cap in the Bada does. So I dont know how you can comment as to its effect. I am not sure you even know what a cap is. Are you calling the transformer on the Bada amp a cap? Now that I looked at the Bada pic I dont see any resevoir caps resembling those on the Singlepower amps. I see a power transformer encased in a round metal cover.
post #36 of 529
Thread Starter 
sacd lover: Are you really that dense Art? Can you name a headphone amp that uses solid state output devices and has an output transformer. Of course not... they dont need an output transformer. But tubes amps can be either OTL or transformer coupled depending on the application. So OTL refers to a tube amp thats.... output transformerless. Your just playing semantics.


Art: Now you are being dense, not me. You said the Bada was not a OTL design. An OTL design is one that does not use transformers in the amplification signal path in order to eliminate the sound degration, however slight, that such a transformer adds. Your saying the Bada is not an OTL amp implies that the Bada is an transformer-coupled-output amp, and this is not true. Why would you want to imply a falsehood and then call me dense for not accepting this falsehood?


sacd lover: ASL believes their transformer design has more dynamics than their OTL design.... so all OTL amps have trouble with dynamics? Thats quite a reach dont you think?


Art: Not a reach at all. Why does ASL need to use a transformer to provide dynamic? Because OTL amps have to take special circuit efforts to compensate for the lack of dynamics involved in not using a transformer. OTL does this by allowing a switch for the listener to make the choice between more natural timbre with less dynamics and power slam, or more dynamics and power slam with less natural timbre. ASL tells you this.

sacd lover: As I already told you, my Singlepower amps have better dynamics than any of my previous solid state amps... and I have owned several. Go listen to a Singlepower SLAM ppx3 or mpx3 and then tell me an OTL amp has inherent dynamic limitations.

Lastly, I dont think you have a clue what the huge cap in the Bada does. So I dont know how you can comment as to its effect. I am not sure you even know what a cap is. Are you calling the transformer on the Bada amp a cap? Now that I looked at the Bada pic I dont see any resevoir caps resembling those on the Singlepower amps. I see a power transformer encased in a round metal cover.


Art: If you think the huge three inch high and five inch diameter capacitor is not a power cap but is instead a transformer, then you lose your credibilty with me entirely. This is disappointing to me after you earlier gave us such a succint description of hybrid amplification.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, the Bada Chief engineer describes the PH12 has an OTL design that uses a huge capacitor that is worthy of a speaker amp (and the Bada PH32 is the PH12 modified as a speaker amp that puts out 100 watts of power - 50 watts at each channel, at 8 ohms - not just at 4 ohms, mind you).

As far as the purpose of this capacitor - you well know it stores power on a temporary basis to draw on in amplification.

The OTL Supra design uses such a huge capacitor to provide needed bass and dynamic slam in compensation for inherent deficits in this regard of the tube OTL design. The Bada as a tube-MosFet hybrid OTL design also uses a huge capacitor even though all other hybrid headphone amps do not. The result is tremendous dynamics and bass, with extremely clean reproduction of the most complex musical passages at the highest recorded sound levels, in the Bada PH12.
post #37 of 529
Art: Now you are being dense, not me. You said the Bada was not a OTL design. An OTL design is one that does not use transformers in the amplification signal path in order to eliminate the sound degration, however slight, that such a transformer adds. Your saying the Bada is not an OTL amp implies that the Bada is an transformer-coupled-output amp, and this is not true. Why would you want to imply a falsehood and then call me dense for not accepting this falsehood?

The only falsehood is you continuing to insist the Bada is an OTL when the OTL desigantion has never been applied... or intended to be applied.... to solid state output devices. Thats the point... solid state outputs inherently DO NOT use transformers. Furthermore, I have never implied the BADA has a transformer output and you are well aware of that. I have stated the OTL designation has always been applied to TUBE AMPS. You are the one insisting on applying the OTL designation to solid state designs.... which is irrelevant.



Art: Not a reach at all. Why does ASL need to use a transformer to provide dynamic? Because OTL amps have to take special circuit efforts to compensate for the lack of dynamics involved in not using a transformer. OTL does this by allowing a switch for the listener to make the choice between more natural timbre with less dynamics and power slam, or more dynamics and power slam with less natural timbre. ASL tells you this.

Your statement was that you have seen experts state that OTL amps lack dynamics. My response was to the statement OTL's lack dynamics. The statements real implication is that TUBE OTL's lack dynamics and thats not true. Taking extra care to get the best dynamics out of a TUBE OTL design has nothing in common with a statement that all such designs are inherently lacking dynamics. You like to play both sides and ignore the inconsistencies in your arguments and here again you have the muddled the distinction between the solid state and tube amps. Again, if all solid state designs are OTL's how do you reconcile the experts statement about OTL's inherently lacking dynamics for those amps?





Art: If you think the huge three inch high and five inch diameter capacitor is not a power cap but is instead a transformer, then you lose your credibilty with me entirely. This is disappointing to me after you earlier gave us such a succint description of hybrid amplification.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, the Bada Chief engineer describes the PH12 has an OTL design that uses a huge capacitor that is worthy of a speaker amp (and the Bada PH32 is the PH12 modified as a speaker amp that puts out 100 watts of power - 50 watts at each channel, at 8 ohms - not just at 4 ohms, mind you).



You again avoid answering my question. We know there are power supply caps in the amp for it to work. He describes the cap as huge but where is it and did he say it was in the metal can... or thats your assumption. With the confusion in translations are you sure he even meant a power supply cap or was he talking about the POWER transformer? Furthermore, did he state the 3x5 " size or is that again your assumption? So again, are you saying the huge power supply cap is in the metal can? If so, then where is the POWER transformer? Caps need to be supplied with the energy to store... correct... so where is that energy coming from? I am asking if you really know what is in the metal can on the back of the amp. That looks like a power transformer to me.
post #38 of 529
OTL stands for Output Transformerless. This amp is definitely OTL.
This amplifier has 3 6sn7's each of which is a dual triode. The first
tube is the preamplifier stage for both channels. Each of the other
tubes is the output tube for a single channel. Without better pictures
of the inside of the amplifier, i cannot determine which of the two
types it is, but there are only two types.

Type 1) Similar to the Singlepower amps. That is to say White Cathode
Follower.

Type 2 ) Similar to the ray samuels stealth or raptor. That is to say
SRPP. Which many people believe to be Series Regulated Push Pull.

From the .6% distortion figure i believe it is probably Type 2.

The Big black round thing is in fact a transformer cover. Whats under
the cover is likely to be a torroid power transformer. If it was a
standard E/I transformer, the cover would be much taller. Likely
what is inside is actually a 3 inch high, 5 inch in diameter torroid.

Given the tube complement the chances of the amplifier actually being
SET OTL is highly unlikely. 6sn7's don't share current well in parallel
mode.

The power supply capacitor or capacitors are inside the bottom
part of the chassis. So are the output capacitors.
post #39 of 529
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin gilmore
OTL stands for Output Transformerless. This amp is definitely OTL.
This amplifier has 3 6sn7's each of which is a dual triode. The first
tube is the preamplifier stage for both channels. Each of the other
tubes is the output tube for a single channel. Without better pictures
of the inside of the amplifier, i cannot determine which of the two
types it is, but there are only two types.

Type 1) Similar to the Singlepower amps. That is to say White Cathode
Follower.

Type 2 ) Similar to the ray samuels stealth or raptor. That is to say
SRPP. Which many people believe to be Series Regulated Push Pull.

From the .6% distortion figure i believe it is probably Type 2.

The Big black round thing is in fact a transformer cover. Whats under
the cover is likely to be a torroid power transformer. If it was a
standard E/I transformer, the cover would be much taller. Likely
what is inside is actually a 3 inch high, 5 inch in diameter torroid.

Given the tube complement the chances of the amplifier actually being
SET OTL is highly unlikely. 6sn7's don't share current well in parallel
mode.

The power supply capacitor or capacitors are inside the bottom
part of the chassis. So are the output capacitors.

Kevin no doubt has a 100 times more knowledge than me in amp circuitry.

But I just want to point out something he might have missed--the manufacturer clearly states that it uses FETs for power amplification, and therefore it is a hybrid design, not tube OTL.

Art, you should open your amp and take a hi-res picture of the components near the headphone output jack. Then we can easily see what is being used for power amplification.
post #40 of 529
quote
But I just want to point out something he might have missed--the manufacturer clearly states that it uses FETs for power amplification, and therefore it is a hybrid design, not tube OTL.

My ability to read chinese is about as close to zero as can be, so for me
it is not necessarily clear that the fets are used for the output stage even
though some of the language converters may indicate otherwise. In fact
the FETS may in fact be used for the regulated power supply just like
the fets in my BH and KGSS, and in fact identical to the regulated power
supply in most of the singlepower amplifiers.

On monday i will give the manufacturer ad page to someone who is
native chinese and also knows electronics and see what he says.

But a high resolution picture of the inside bottom of the unit will absolutely
answer all questions.
post #41 of 529
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin gilmore
quote
But I just want to point out something he might have missed--the manufacturer clearly states that it uses FETs for power amplification, and therefore it is a hybrid design, not tube OTL.

My ability to read chinese is about as close to zero as can be, so for me
it is not necessarily clear that the fets are used for the output stage even
though some of the language converters may indicate otherwise. In fact
the FETS may in fact be used for the regulated power supply just like
the fets in my BH and KGSS, and in fact identical to the regulated power
supply in most of the singlepower amplifiers.

On monday i will give the manufacturer ad page to someone who is
native chinese and also knows electronics and see what he says.

But a high resolution picture of the inside bottom of the unit will absolutely
answer all questions.
Thanks for the input all. I don't have a digital camera to take pics of the inside. It took me 2 weeks to get my son in Apopka, Florida to take pics shown on this thread - he is very busy at this time.

So the big round 3 inch high and 5 inch diameter dome on the top of the amp is a transformer?

Is the same dome on the Singlepower Supra also a transformer?
post #42 of 529
On the singlepower the square thing is the power transformer and
the two round things are the massive power supply caps. The caps
are about 3.5 inches in diameter, and are the largest capacitor container
ever made. Those actually are the caps, not capacitor covers. On
very large electrolytics the length to diameter ratio is always in the
range of 2:1 to 3:1.
post #43 of 529
i've owned the Meixing (Ming Da) MC66AE the op discussed for about 4 weeks and i am very impressed. outstanding for the money. makes me want to hear that bada.
post #44 of 529
I have a Bada PH-12 on the way.... looking forward to using it!!!
post #45 of 529
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjr300
I have a Bada PH-12 on the way.... looking forward to using it!!!
See page 5 for tube use update.
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