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does wire acctually make a difference?  

post #1 of 55
9/3/05 at 6:50am
Thread Starter 
This is probably going to be a contraversial thread.
There are many myths about interconnects and audiophile cable wires and all kinds of things, but i have recently been led to beleive that quality of interconnect makes absolutly no difference at all. Only thickness of wire can make a difference. There are a few resons to make me beleive this. some people may be shocked to know that a typical 8-ohm four layer woofer voice coil contains about 120 feet of number 28 solid copper wire. This wire is all in the circuit with the speaker system hookup wire. It's also much longer than a normal run of hookup wire from the amplifier to the speaker. Even a mid range speaker can have about 30 feet of number 33 solid copper wire and a tweeter can have 20 feet of number 35 solid copper wire. Obviously we are talking about headphones here, not subwoofers, but an average voice coil can be 10 feet in length, and of a standard copper type. Having 10 feet of "normal" wire and then adding two feet of audiophile wire will not make any difference. Recently in fact i got a audiophile interconnect. Audiogeek nitrogen to be exact. At first i was absolutly convinced that the wire made a big difference to the sound. but then i set up a test where i could instantly swith between interconnects. I was still sure i could hear a difference. But this was untill i got someone else to come and switch them around for me, so i would have no idea which cable was being used. So i started making predictions, but they came out to be wrong. When i thought i was using the audiogeek cable i wasn't and vice versa. After listening for an extended period of time i realised there was no difference between cables. Only the Gauge of the wire made a difference, and then only over long distances. Some people go so far as to say that they can hear a difference with AC wires. Now this is completly ridiculous considering that everyone uses massive amounts of "normal" cable for miles and miles from your house to the power station, and that the small amount of "high quality wire" in your house would make no difference. But, as I mentioned earlier, this will probably be a very contraversial topic, and just think this is only my lonley opinion, and there are many other opinions out there. I welcome any debate on this topic, i really do.
post #2 of 55
9/3/05 at 7:54am
For what it's worth, I've found the same results. I realize some neutral (non-wire sellers) engineers and designers think otherwise, but I just haven't heard conclusive results. I've also found other areas where my money just seems to speak more loudly. Headphones, amplification are two areas where I can hear night and day differences, repeatable and obvious to non-golden ears.

There are practical limits to what I can spend, and, lately, I've kept to spending towards the areas where major differences can be heard.
post #3 of 55
9/3/05 at 8:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jama211
..." At first i was absolutly convinced that the wire made a big difference to the sound. but then i set up a test where i could instantly swith between interconnects. I was still sure i could hear a difference. But this was untill i got someone else to come and switch them around for me, so i would have no idea which cable was being used. So i started making predictions, but they came out to be wrong. When i thought i was using the audiogeek cable i wasn't and vice versa. After listening for an extended period of time i realised there was no difference between cables. Only the Gauge of the wire made a difference, and then only over long distances. Some people go so far as to say that they can hear a difference with AC wires."...
There have been quite a number of those threads I can’t see how another thread will add anything revolutionary new.

If you cannot hear any differences - well- good for you. You will be able to limit the expenditure on audio equipment somewhat.
post #4 of 55
9/3/05 at 8:53am
Hmm... Careful, you're close to breaking the forum rules

Quote:
Cables, Power, Tweaks, Speakers, Accessories (DBT-Free Forum)
Granted, you've done a simple blind test, but be careful not to cross the line to the dark side and perform an evil double blind test

Hehe, actually I think you've got the right idea, use of common sens and then using a test method which negates the possibility of being affected by the placebo effect. On a more scientific type forum you'd get two thumbs up, here, chances are you'll get more replies like Glod's, often by people who probably really think they can hear differences (placebo?), but who again probably never confirmed their results with a DBT or BT. For some reason BT's seem to be shunned, so carries on the notion there are differences..

One strange thing, instead issuing a no DBT 'rule', wouldn't it be better to actually perform a DBT or BT in a controlled environment, and then when a sceptic brings up the DBT, just shaft him by telling him that DBTs were done and in fact proved there were differences? There's even people willing to hand out thousands of dollars to those who could tell the difference between ICs, speaker wires, power cords, etc in a DBT. So far no one managed to claim the prize money...

(also, OP, paragraphs are good )

But its a sensitive subject, when people have spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars on wire and some come and tell them there are no differences as say a 5$ Reno Depot zip cord, it often strikes a sensitive cord, and some even seem to take it as an insult..
post #5 of 55
9/3/05 at 9:48am
I've done the same tests using my MPX3 which has dual input and a switch on the front panel. I could tell a big difference between Copper and Silver interconnects right away.

I believe to hear difference in interconnects you need a good hi-end system, with a decent source and amp, which you both do not have. It makes perfect sense to me that in your setup, you cannot hear a difference. When you buy a good external DAC or CDP and a good amp, you'll be able to tell the difference easily.
post #6 of 55
9/3/05 at 10:02am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jashugan
...I believe to hear difference in interconnects you need a good hi-end system, with a decent source and amp, which you both do not have. It makes perfect sense to me that in your setup, you cannot hear a difference. When you buy a good external DAC or CDP and a good amp, you'll be able to tell the difference easily.
I was not using my own setup. i was at a friends house and was using alessandro ms-2's with Gilmore Lite and SACD's. I also tried with HD600's.

And trust me, I do have the ability to detect small sonic differences.

P.S. I hope I do not offend anybody and everyone is entitled to enjoy their own interconnects and cable upgrades.
post #7 of 55
9/3/05 at 10:47am
Well then the SACD player must have not done a very good job. And the other units in the system you mentionned above is not exactly what I'd call a good hi-end system. It's a starter rig, nothing more.
post #8 of 55
9/3/05 at 10:56am
Quote:
I've done the same tests using my MPX3 which has dual input and a switch on the front panel. I could tell a big difference between Copper and Silver interconnects right away.
I find this odd and am not accusing you of not telling the truth, but the MPX still probably has some copper cable inside the amp. If the electrons that travel through your CD player or turntable and your amp are copper, how does 3 feet in the middle make it sound better?

1. Electrons go through copper wire on your soundcard and DAC.

2. Electrons go through RCA connectors on your soundcard and DAC (which are probably not silver)

3. Electrons go through 3 feet of silver interconnect

4. Electrons go through RCA connectors on your amp (which I believe are silver)

5. Electrons go through 50-100 feet of copper and silver amp wire.

6. Electrons go through gold plated headphone jack

7. Electrons go through headphone cable and connector.

After this huge path for the signal to travel, it is the 3 feet of silver that is the only thing that affects the signal? How is this possible?
post #9 of 55
9/3/05 at 11:11am
For what it's worth, I've been able to tell a difference between cables in a blind test. I had someone connect a 1m run of Straightwire Encore II and a 1m run of Nordost Blue Heaven to the two outputs of an Arcam CD33 CD player. The amp was a Musical Fidelity A5 integrated with one set of ICs going to one input and the other going to another input. Speakers were the Totem Hawks. I had no idea which interconnect was going to which input, and I was able to switch from the remote. I guessed correctly every time I did the test which cable was which, and my conclusions on their sounds were exactly how the cables are supposed to sound: the Straightwire is warmer with more body, the Nordost is crisper with a brighter treble but is also slightly more lean. For me, this confirms that I can, in fact, hear the difference between cables, but obviously they're very small and difficult to place. YMMV, of course.
post #10 of 55
9/3/05 at 11:13am
Oh, also, I've found it's much easier to detect differences in cables with speakers than with headphones, for whatever reason. I don't know why, that's just what I've found.
post #11 of 55
9/3/05 at 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by meat01
I find this odd and am not accusing you of not telling the truth, but the MPX still probably has some copper cable inside the amp. If the electrons that travel through your CD player or turntable and your amp are copper, how does 3 feet in the middle make it sound better?

1. Electrons go through copper wire on your soundcard and DAC.

2. Electrons go through RCA connectors on your soundcard and DAC (which are probably not silver)

3. Electrons go through 3 feet of silver interconnect

4. Electrons go through RCA connectors on your amp (which I believe are silver)

5. Electrons go through 50-100 feet of copper and silver amp wire.

6. Electrons go through gold plated headphone jack

7. Electrons go through headphone cable and connector.

After this huge path for the signal to travel, it is the 3 feet of silver that is the only thing that affects the signal? How is this possible?
Did I say it was the only thing which affected the signal? No.

I simply stated thatswitching from silver to copper interconnects made a significant change in the sonic presentation of the amp, and that my friend, is a certainty. Wether you want to believe it or not is entirely up to you, but I'll ask you not to put my word in doubt in this thread.
post #12 of 55
9/3/05 at 12:33pm
Thread Starter 
I also started this thread whithout knowing there had been many like it. I am still a little inexperianced, and was just interested in people's opinions. I won't buy expensive cables, and if you do, fine. I'm happy with what I have.

But sometimes it's just good to have a healthy debate right?
post #13 of 55
9/3/05 at 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jama211
But sometimes it's just good to have a healthy debate right?
"Healthy debate" is an oxymoron with respect to this issue.
post #14 of 55
9/3/05 at 1:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS
"Healthy debate" is an oxymoron with respect to this issue.

"beating the dead horse" is the term that comes to my mind
post #15 of 55
9/3/05 at 1:20pm
Quote:
I believe to hear difference in interconnects you need a good hi-end system, with a decent source and amp, which you both do not have. It makes perfect sense to me that in your setup, you cannot hear a difference. When you buy a good external DAC or CDP and a good amp, you'll be able to tell the difference easily.
Exactly the kind of BS you're to expect. You don't have a high end system, therefore you cannot hear the differences there are in cables. Therefore, your claim that there are no differences in cable is invalidated. lol

If you can identify cables in a DBT, then you're a millionnaire. Thats the problem, its easy to make empty claims, but in the end of the line, if you can't backup those claims...
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