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post #31 of 45
6/25/02 at 2:53pm

Caution: DBT has been creeping back into this

Quote:
Originally posted by Ricky


Not so easy. You say that the way to remove placebo effect is to tell the person it's a placebo, but, it's not just to tell the person it's placebo, the person has to *know* it's a placebo. That leads to an oximoron in your case. If you really *knew* cables are placebo, we wouldn't be talking here, but you think they are not placebo, so this dissapearing effect should'n work on you. The only reliable and valid method to remove expectation effects is to use a double blind test, as is done regularly wen testing drugs effectiveness.
Ricky, in case you hadn't picked this up yet, drug testing is what I do. DBT is sometimes used, but is also useless when the drug in question has side-effects that can't be replicated by placebo. There are other perfectly reliable methods that are used in those situations. The key to good research is to use the right methodology for the question at hand.

I tend to be very careful about what I say. I do know that subtle differences can be imagined, and have also experienced perceived small differences when the stimulus wasn't changed at all (same cable). So? Once you know that it's happening, it can be controlled. The key is repetition and time.

Quote:

How do you know you're not influenced by expectations?
I'm very certain that I am influenced by expectations. However, I am also aware how to detect those influences...repeat as needed: time and repetition.

Quote:
Well, in my case, perceptions on the same stimulus can vary from one day to another, depending on many external factors. As to stability of perceived differences, I think it has been proved that auditory memory is quite short, and not very reliable under long periods of time. Still, you can't say that you are not prone to expectaton effects to have an effect on you, even over long periods of time.
Auditory memory is not quite as short as people think, and there are aspects of it that are not. However, unblinded A/B testing is a perfectly good way to make comparisons in a time frame that is within the memory span (particularly when there are characteristics of the component/cable that make blind testing impossible anyway).

Quote:

Well, if it's perceived in any way, it's perceived, if not, it's not. If not reported or even not perceived, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or is not measurable, of course.
That turns out to be untrue. There are a great many stimuli that are perceived, but are not consciously registered. The perceptual/memory system can filter out a great number of stimuli that have been detected at the level of a sensory receptor, before these stimuli ever get to a conscious level. How to get these stimuli into consciousness? Go back to my previous post on perceptual learning...

Quote:


Yes, this doesn't contradict anything I have said. Of course, reporting no differences doesn't mean that there are no differences, this is obvious. But being able to report differences even under blind controlled conditions is indeed proof of real differences perceived, that's why blind tests are required by the scientific community to prove that perceived differences are real and not just due to external uncontrolled factors such as expectation effects.
You're only seeing half the picture. Yes, a reported difference in a properly conducted blind test is usually good proof of a real difference. The problem is that the absence of a reported difference in a blind test usually means absolutely nothing, at least the way they have been conducted in audio. A blind test can also conceal the very differences that it purports to be examining, making it a very unsuitable methodology for testing fine perceptual differences...unless conducted with far more rigor than its proponents in audio have ever used.

It's the mark of a bad scientist that they come up with a method, and then start applying it to everything under the sun, without regards for whether or not it is the right methodology for the problem at hand. A research methodology is simply a tool to be applied to the problem at hand. If you tie yourself to one tool, and it's the wrong one, you're SOL.

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post #32 of 45
6/27/02 at 1:29am
Ricky, I do believe you are unconsiously trolling, because this is called a flame war, a very rare occurance here on head-fi.

Congrats! Go join rec.audio.opinion! You are now qualified!
post #33 of 45
6/27/02 at 9:14am
Quote:
Originally posted by fredpb
Ricky, I do believe you are unconsiously trolling, because this is called a flame war, a very rare occurance here on head-fi.

Congrats! Go join rec.audio.opinion! You are now qualified!
*I* started the flame war on power cables by spurring him on so yell at me instead.
post #34 of 45
6/27/02 at 10:43am
Hmm, the thing is, in the matter of cables, the null hypothesis for human perception can never be proved, so I do think the ones that disagree with the null hypothesis has a leg up on you

I think we have covered this point before--NOT passing DBT doesn't necessarily mean that people really can't tell things apart.

But I have to say that I have yet to see a reasonable explanation for what power cables do. I mean--ANY power tweaks OTHER than power cables, I can understand better
post #35 of 45
6/27/02 at 11:39am
Thread Starter 
Well, then we must think that mind-reading, ghosts, levitation, or whatever thing you imagine, may exist, since the null hypothesis (they don't exist) can't be proved.

But, same as with cables, actually nobody has been able to prove they exist, in rigorous tests. That could mean something, don't you believe?

By the way, over these type of tests on cables, see my 3-point response to yout 3-point post at http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showth...515#post151515
post #36 of 45
6/27/02 at 11:55am
You need to take an epistemology course. Epistemology--a subject in the field of philosophy that deals with what it is to know something, and 'how the heck can we ever know anything about the world'--I think you would be interested
post #37 of 45
6/27/02 at 12:10pm
Thread Starter 
And I think you you should get some basic courses over science and research, aside from electronics and psychoacoustics.

Why don't you try at http://www.skepdic.com ?

Look for terms such as control study, pathological science, pseudo-science, self-decepcion, placebo effect, communal reinforcement, confirmation bias, selective thinking, testimonials, wishful thinking, etc.

See you.
post #38 of 45
6/27/02 at 2:55pm
This is prolly going to touch-off WW3 but I don't mean it to..

The existance of a God can't be proven yet many people choose to believe based on thier own personal experiences.

Anyone wanting to argue with someone about thier belief in a God is just asking for serious trouble.
post #39 of 45
6/27/02 at 11:19pm
ok this has been an interesting thread. i have always been fascinated by the tweak vs. $ issue.

but what i haven't seen anyone talk about was if they ever sat in a chair with their back to the equipment and had someone switch the cables back and forth to see if they could honestly tell the difference??

at the headphone world tour i had the chance to listen to 2 pairs of senn 600's plugged into the same amp...

1 had stock cables the other had cardas cables.

i went back and forth, and although it wasn't a totally blind test to my ears the difference was huge.

up until that moment i had always thought that replacing the headphone cable for a cable costing $150+ was marketing BS.

but now i'm going to upgrade because i have heard the difference.

matthew
post #40 of 45
6/27/02 at 11:44pm
not another debate thread!

there should be a big warning on the main page "stay away, useless thread inside"
post #41 of 45
6/27/02 at 11:46pm
but if you skim all of the messages in just the right way (from bottom to top, right to left) you almost, kind of, come away with a little bit of useless information!

matthew
post #42 of 45
6/27/02 at 11:59pm
Quote:
Originally posted by matthewd5
but if you skim all of the messages in just the right way (from bottom to top, right to left) you almost, kind of, come away with a little bit of useless information!

matthew
ha, ill try that!

this threads are just so silly, there is no discussion between the two camps. you have one side saying "yes! it makes a big difference! i tried out this and that blah blah blah". than there is Ricky "you guys are fools, placebo, no difference, i dont need to hear it to know it blah blah blah"

and 10 pages later nothing has been gained or changed.

the way this is going i can see Ricky moving on to headphones next..
post #43 of 45
6/28/02 at 12:13am
Quote:
Originally posted by taoster
the way this is going i can see Ricky moving on to headphones next..
No, a moving truck just pulled up.... I believe Ricky has just moved in and made the Cables, Power, Tweaks, Speakers, Accessories (DBT-Free Forum) Forum his new home.

By the looks of that couch, huge refrigerator, and the even bigger roll of zip cord, I'm guessing he'll be here for a while.

(Oh, don't mind me.... I'm just sittin' here polishing my Cardas RCA and XLR Caps.... ProGold'ing my connectors.... cleaning the lint off my Sorbothane cushy feet.... oh yeah, and listening to an upsampling DAC.... )
post #44 of 45
6/28/02 at 12:21am
"No, a moving truck just pulled up.... I believe Ricky has just moved in and made the Cables, Power, Tweaks, Speakers, Accessories (DBT-Free Forum) Forum his new home. "

No no no no no no no no....

No!!!!!!!!

This forum BELONGS to the sane, rational, and experienced!!!!!

markl
post #45 of 45
6/28/02 at 2:15am
Quote:
Originally posted by markl
[BThis forum BELONGS to the sane, rational, and experienced!!!!![/B]
And on that note...
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