Regarding DOWNMIXING with a SACD - Page 4

WHAT is responsible for DOWNMIXING on my DV-578A?

HI DiPete!

According to what system is this hated DOWNMIXING performed?
Some native beast? But what's the name of this beast if my dog asked about it? My dog has clearly better ears than mine. And, since I care about my dog, should I EVER play to him the DOWNMIXED version of the "Dark side of the Moon"?!

Please promise that you'll all watch "The MAKING the Dark Side of the Moon"

I can't wait till I'll watch the "Making of the Dark Side of the Moon" tonight AGAIN!!! Actually, but please do not spread the news, I watched it in March, but never paid attention to any mixing, mastering, etc. You guys, SoudBoy, DiPete, BigShot, and many others made me plunge into all this interesting stuff ... but remember it started so INNOCENTLY, just about DOWNMIXING from a 5.1 SACD to 2.0 performed by my DV-598A-S.

Adam

The Making of the Dark Side of the Moon and SACD

Hi!

Below material is relevant to our discussion about downMIXING, MIXING, Multi-channel (5.1), 2-channel of a SACD disc, and a regular Red Book CD layer on a hybrid SACD. As the Case Study, I've proposed the masterpiece called "The Dark Side of the Moon" which was issued on a SACD disc in 2003 on the occasion of the 30th anniversary of the original recording.

Our discussions in this thread lead us to consider interesting issues related to recording, mixing, and mastering in order to see the bigger picture.

In this post I include some quotations from "The Making of the Dark Side of the Moon", DVD, 2003, to illustrate the complexity and expandibility of artistic creation by musicians in modern era of advanced technology.

Alan Pansons (the mixing engineer):
"... a lot of hands on deck. ..."
...

(now comes the logically continuous sequence properly "mixed in" on the DVD):

Richard Wright:
"All of us are on the desk with our fingers on the faders."

Alan Parsons:
"But that's the way it was because we didn't have automation those days."

David Gilmour:
"A MIX in those days was a PERFORMANCE!!!!!!!
Every bit as much as DOING a GIG!!!!!"

Alan Parsons:
It's one thing actually that we've kind of LOST in the modern age."

Since they could NOT agree on the final MIX they also hired a professional Mixing Supervisor Chris Thomas, from outside. Roger Waters admitted (on the DVD, 2003) that Chris Thomas did it "softer" than he himself would have done.

Probably similar involvement of Pink Floyd was during the artistic CREATION of the 5.1 version (for the SACD format). Perhaps "NOT all hands were on the deck" due to the significant technological improvements in mixing, mastering, but the ARTISTS-CREATORS were at the right place at the right time, by Guthrie, to "implement" their VISION of the LP.

In my opinion, this is the NATURAL and also ARTISTICALLY OPTIMAL process in which artists (Pink Floyd for that matter) EXTEND their creative process BEYOND composing and performing, to "produce" a masterpiece ("The Dark Side of the Moon").

I'll see You all on the Dark Side of the Moon.

Adam

Hi Onix!

A Super Audio CD (SACD) uses DSD technology. This technology utilizes a sampling frequency of about 2.822 MHz, which is 64 times that of a conventional CD (44.1 kHz), and a 1-bit quantization that enables the disc to hold 4 times the amount of information that a standard PCM format CD can hold. Before recorded on a SACD master disc, the SACD bitsteam is COMPRESSED so that i takes up less space on the disc. This compression system is what allows SACD to carry BOTH 2-channel and 6-channel (5.1) representations of the music on the high-resolution (High-Density) layer.

A HYBRID SACD consists of an HD (High Density) layer and a CD layer which are disjoint. The CD layer (standard density) is on the upper "deck" and the HD (High Density) layer is on the lower "deck". There are also dual-layer High Density SACDs.

This is completely different from the DVD technology. Single-sided and single-layer DVD holds 4.7 GB, which is 7 times that of a CD (double-layer and double-sided DVD is 17GB). One of the Audio Formats on DVD soundtracks is DTS with sampling frequency, say 48kHz, and up to 20 bits resolution. But be careful there is also so called DVD-Audio sound on specially encoded high-resolution DVD-Audio discs.

By the way, most probably your dvd/cd player can also DOWNMIX from the "5.1" multi-channel to the "2.0" 2-channel stereo sound. (My Pioneer DV-578A does DOWNMIXING!)

Adam

Hi DustyChalk!

Where on earth could I find this article by Steve Hoffman?

Adam

Capacity of DVD-Video vs. SACD vs. CD

Hi Onix!

Here is some more info regarding HD (High Density) layer on a SACD disc and a comparison with a DVD-Video disc. As we all know music CDs (so called Red Book), which you buy in stores, hold only 680MB of audio data. This allows for about 74 mins and 33 secs of music. (They can also achieve over 80 mins of music by slightly varying the CD standards.)

Now, as concerns SACD, due to technological improvements since 1982 (when the first CDs were launched), a standard one-layer SACD disc holds the same amount of data as a typical DVD-Video disc. They BOTH can hold 4.7 GB of data. (By the way, mechanical and optical properties of SACD disc are similar to DVD-5 disc properties.) Since the capacity of one-layer SACD is about 7 times the storage capacity of a regular CD they call it High Density (HD) layer. In case of the "2-channel stereo" this corresponds to about 110 minutes of music. When a SACD contains 2 (yes, two) HD layers then the capacity is doubled to 8.5 GB. Finally, the hybrid disc contains 2 layers: one is the HD layer and the other one is the regular CD (Red Book) layer. In this case the total is: 4.7 GB + 680 MB.
That the one-layer SACD disc can contain BOTH the "2-channel stereo" and the "5.1-channel" areas on the same layer is due to the following facts:
1. The layer itself is the HD (High Density) layer
2. Proper compression of both the "2-ch" and the "5.1" audio data is applied

Adam