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post #46 of 68
Thread Starter 

WHAT is responsible for DOWNMIXING on my DV-578A?

HI DiPete!

According to what system is this hated DOWNMIXING performed?
Some native beast? But what's the name of this beast if my dog asked about it? My dog has clearly better ears than mine. And, since I care about my dog, should I EVER play to him the DOWNMIXED version of the "Dark side of the Moon"?!
post #47 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamCalifornia
I can see the complexity involved in creating the 5.1 version in ANY format.
It is a creative process involving "arbitrary" ARTISTIC approach.
I've come across a beautifull book entitled "The Art of Mixing".
It's got a lot of interesting illustrations. I've also read that nowdays on an 2-inch tape they can have 256 tracks. They still use the analogue magnetic tapes because of the "warmth" they deliver- however it is perhaps 50-50.
I've read that the surround sound remix of Dire Straits' "Brothers In Arms" took 3 months to complete.

I suppose you can see why some listeners objects to the remixing of classic records, especially those that are being remixed into surround sound. However, as you mentioned, (re)mixing is an artistic endeavor and there's really no right or wrong. A lot of it also depends on the technology available at the time.
post #48 of 68
Thread Starter 

Please promise that you'll all watch "The MAKING the Dark Side of the Moon"

I can't wait till I'll watch the "Making of the Dark Side of the Moon" tonight AGAIN!!! Actually, but please do not spread the news, I watched it in March, but never paid attention to any mixing, mastering, etc. You guys, SoudBoy, DiPete, BigShot, and many others made me plunge into all this interesting stuff ... but remember it started so INNOCENTLY, just about DOWNMIXING from a 5.1 SACD to 2.0 performed by my DV-598A-S.

Adam
post #49 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamCalifornia
HI DiPete!

According to what system is this hated DOWNMIXING performed?
Some native beast? But what's the name of this beast if my dog asked about it? My dog has clearly better ears than mine. And, since I care about my dog, should I EVER play to him the DOWNMIXED version of the "Dark side of the Moon"?!
I think the DSP (digital signal processor) takes all the channels and merges them into 2 channels. I don't think the downmixing has anything to do with Dolby, because DVD-A's are PCM, and SACD's are DSD, neither of them are Dolby Digital.

In the 578a, the DSD signals from the SACD are converted to PCM and then sent out to the DAC. In the Denon 3910 the DSD signals are not converted to PCM but go straight to the DACs as DSD (so you save one conversion step).

Hope this helps.

DigiPete
post #50 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundboy
I suppose you can see why some listeners objects to the remixing of classic records, especially those that are being remixed into surround sound. However, as you mentioned, (re)mixing is an artistic endeavor and there's really no right or wrong.
Well, actually there is right and wrong... there's the original artist's creative choices, and the changes to that made by an engineer many years later without the artist's input. Remixing is more common than most people think, and even when it's done under the supervision of the original artists (like Frank Zappa or Jimmy Page) it can still result in a train wreck.

No one would ever suggest making the blush on the Mona Lisa's cheeks a little redder or changing the proportion of the size of her nose to her face... but these sorts of "improvements" are done by corporations all the time to movies for DVD release and music reissues for CD.

See ya
Steve
post #51 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigshot
Well, actually there is right and wrong... there's the original artist's creative choices, and the changes to that made by an engineer many years later without the artist's input. Remixing is more common than most people think, and even when it's done under the supervision of the original artists (like Frank Zappa or Jimmy Page) it can still result in a train wreck.
OK, I agree with you there. I was thinking about an artist remixing his/her albums with a vision that can't be realized when the album was originally recorded.
post #52 of 68
Thread Starter 

The Making of the Dark Side of the Moon and SACD

Hi!

Below material is relevant to our discussion about downMIXING, MIXING, Multi-channel (5.1), 2-channel of a SACD disc, and a regular Red Book CD layer on a hybrid SACD. As the Case Study, I've proposed the masterpiece called "The Dark Side of the Moon" which was issued on a SACD disc in 2003 on the occasion of the 30th anniversary of the original recording.

Our discussions in this thread lead us to consider interesting issues related to recording, mixing, and mastering in order to see the bigger picture.

In this post I include some quotations from "The Making of the Dark Side of the Moon", DVD, 2003, to illustrate the complexity and expandibility of artistic creation by musicians in modern era of advanced technology.

Alan Pansons (the mixing engineer):
"... a lot of hands on deck. ..."
...

(now comes the logically continuous sequence properly "mixed in" on the DVD):

Richard Wright:
"All of us are on the desk with our fingers on the faders."

Alan Parsons:
"But that's the way it was because we didn't have automation those days."

David Gilmour:
"A MIX in those days was a PERFORMANCE!!!!!!!
Every bit as much as DOING a GIG!!!!!"

Alan Parsons:
It's one thing actually that we've kind of LOST in the modern age."

Since they could NOT agree on the final MIX they also hired a professional Mixing Supervisor Chris Thomas, from outside. Roger Waters admitted (on the DVD, 2003) that Chris Thomas did it "softer" than he himself would have done.

Probably similar involvement of Pink Floyd was during the artistic CREATION of the 5.1 version (for the SACD format). Perhaps "NOT all hands were on the deck" due to the significant technological improvements in mixing, mastering, but the ARTISTS-CREATORS were at the right place at the right time, by Guthrie, to "implement" their VISION of the LP.

In my opinion, this is the NATURAL and also ARTISTICALLY OPTIMAL process in which artists (Pink Floyd for that matter) EXTEND their creative process BEYOND composing and performing, to "produce" a masterpiece ("The Dark Side of the Moon").

I'll see You all on the Dark Side of the Moon.

Adam
post #53 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamCalifornia
David Gilmour:
"A MIX in those days was a PERFORMANCE!!!!!!!
Every bit as much as DOING a GIG!!!!!"

Probably similar involvement of Pink Floyd was during the artistic CREATION of the 5.1 version (for the SACD format). Perhaps "NOT all hands were on the deck" due to the significant technological improvements in mixing, mastering, but the ARTISTS-CREATORS were at the right place at the right time, by Guthrie.

In my opinion, this is the NATURAL and also ARTISTICALLY OPTIMAL process in which artists (Pink Floyd for that matter) EXTEND their creative process BEYOND composing and performing, to "produce" a masterpiece ("The Dark Side of the Moon").

Adam
In another words, the original mix is not "definitive" since technology will allow the artist to better shape his/her/their creation. Some people will take serious issue with that type of thinking.

You revisionist!!
post #54 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundboy
Perhaps that's just your player. Sounds like the settings are used to set the default playback mode.

Here's how a hybrid SACD looks like when dissected....



So there's really no downmixing with SACD. You can choose either to play the 2 channel or the multi-channel section of the DSD layer. And if you choose to play the multi-channel section through 2 speakers, then you will be missing the rest of the information.
What's the capacity in MBs on the DSD layer? The two channel area looks really small compared with the CD layer. Is it the same as a DVD?
post #55 of 68
Thread Starter 

Hi Onix!

A Super Audio CD (SACD) uses DSD technology. This technology utilizes a sampling frequency of about 2.822 MHz, which is 64 times that of a conventional CD (44.1 kHz), and a 1-bit quantization that enables the disc to hold 4 times the amount of information that a standard PCM format CD can hold. Before recorded on a SACD master disc, the SACD bitsteam is COMPRESSED so that i takes up less space on the disc. This compression system is what allows SACD to carry BOTH 2-channel and 6-channel (5.1) representations of the music on the high-resolution (High-Density) layer.

A HYBRID SACD consists of an HD (High Density) layer and a CD layer which are disjoint. The CD layer (standard density) is on the upper "deck" and the HD (High Density) layer is on the lower "deck". There are also dual-layer High Density SACDs.

This is completely different from the DVD technology. Single-sided and single-layer DVD holds 4.7 GB, which is 7 times that of a CD (double-layer and double-sided DVD is 17GB). One of the Audio Formats on DVD soundtracks is DTS with sampling frequency, say 48kHz, and up to 20 bits resolution. But be careful there is also so called DVD-Audio sound on specially encoded high-resolution DVD-Audio discs.

By the way, most probably your dvd/cd player can also DOWNMIX from the "5.1" multi-channel to the "2.0" 2-channel stereo sound. (My Pioneer DV-578A does DOWNMIXING!)

Adam
post #56 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamCalifornia
Probably similar involvement of Pink Floyd was during the artistic CREATION of the 5.1 version (for the SACD format).
Actually, there is an extensive article on the mixing of that album for the 5.1 format, repleat with interesting stories about getting "snowed in" and such. I think it was Steve Hoffman, but I could be wrong.
post #57 of 68
Thread Starter 

Hi DustyChalk!

Where on earth could I find this article by Steve Hoffman?

Adam
post #58 of 68
Thread Starter 

Capacity of DVD-Video vs. SACD vs. CD

Hi Onix!

Here is some more info regarding HD (High Density) layer on a SACD disc and a comparison with a DVD-Video disc. As we all know music CDs (so called Red Book), which you buy in stores, hold only 680MB of audio data. This allows for about 74 mins and 33 secs of music. (They can also achieve over 80 mins of music by slightly varying the CD standards.)

Now, as concerns SACD, due to technological improvements since 1982 (when the first CDs were launched), a standard one-layer SACD disc holds the same amount of data as a typical DVD-Video disc. They BOTH can hold 4.7 GB of data. (By the way, mechanical and optical properties of SACD disc are similar to DVD-5 disc properties.) Since the capacity of one-layer SACD is about 7 times the storage capacity of a regular CD they call it High Density (HD) layer. In case of the "2-channel stereo" this corresponds to about 110 minutes of music. When a SACD contains 2 (yes, two) HD layers then the capacity is doubled to 8.5 GB. Finally, the hybrid disc contains 2 layers: one is the HD layer and the other one is the regular CD (Red Book) layer. In this case the total is: 4.7 GB + 680 MB.
That the one-layer SACD disc can contain BOTH the "2-channel stereo" and the "5.1-channel" areas on the same layer is due to the following facts:
1. The layer itself is the HD (High Density) layer
2. Proper compression of both the "2-ch" and the "5.1" audio data is applied

Adam
post #59 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamCalifornia
Where on earth could I find this article by Steve Hoffman?

Adam
Steve Hoffman isn't involved in the remixing of "Dark Side of the Moon" into surround SACD.

Check out this article on James Guthrie from Sound and Vision on remixing "DSotM" into surround....

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/art...&page_number=1

And original engineer Alan Parson's reaction to the SACD....

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/art...&page_number=1
post #60 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamCalifornia
Where on earth could I find this article by Steve Hoffman?

Adam
It wasn't Hoffman, as was pointed out. I think the article is longer in Sound & Vision, because I'm not seeing the snow story I remember. Or maybe it was a similar article, still about Guthrie, but in another magazine.

Anyway, try googling for it..."guthrie surround dark side of the moon"...
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