An Interview With John Grado - Page 20

Even if after 20 years it might be "technically" ethical to attempt to reverse engineer some product and then sell the result under another brand, I wonder if that would match personal ethics and integrity. Also, the pride of authentic authorship and truly original invention is an important element in the practice of engineering, as in any other creative discipline. No reverse engineering challenge can give that personal reward. Imho, it's not even very respectful to ask a creative mind to reverse engineer some other creative mind's work. That is probably a romantic take, but I just wanted to write my own comments on that suggestion to reverse engineer the Orpheus.

John's objection to the cloning of his RA-1 is understandable, and reasonable. I bought an RA-1, even though I knew about such clones. I did this because: 1) I didn't trust that a clone performed as well; and 2) because I considered it unconscionable to buy a cheaper clone (i.e., a forgery) of a product that was still being marketed by it's manufacturer. The situation with the HE90 is different, however. Sennheiser has loudly and repeatedly declared that they will never market this headphone again. So, what I've proposed for reverse engineering is a 20+ year-old dead product. Since Sennheiser says that no more will ever be made, what's the problem with making a similar, but less expensive one? As for John not wanting to do this, lets hope that one or more other manufacturers will be willing to do so. Finally, as for the possibility of Grado producing a hybrid headphone, perhaps they can reverse engineer another long-dead product; i.e. the AKG K340. IMHO, contracting out reverse engineering to a Chinese source would absolutely minimize any and all development costs, thereby removing this excuse, and thereby providing our Head-Fi community with the possibility of purchasing some *modern* outstanding headphones, at a relatively reasonable price. I still hope that John is reading the postings in this thread.

that was an EXCELLENT write-up Zanth!

As I look at my RS-1s now, and think that John Grado himself couldve been personally involved in its construction, I cant help but feel (very) loved.

All you Senn/AKG/Beyer fans, try to beat that!

Mike, I know that you're excited about the possibilities for better and cheaper headphones in the future, but as Jason has said, an HE-90 type of headphone (pure electrostat) is very unlikely to come from Grado Labs. It's just not in the picture. In fact, I remember talking with John about this myself when I was at one of the NY meets that he hosted. I specifically asked him about the possibility of building an HE-90 or Omega II type of electrostat, and mentioned that I thought the RS-1 came as close as any dynamic headphones at reaching that sort of treble excitement and clarity, and his response was basically "not our market." I was quite impressed by this and just let the moment pass. He's heard all of the "best" headphones and is happy with what his company is doing. All of the products in the current Grado lineup are well positioned and competitive at their price points.

To tell you the truth, I don't blame him one bit. Electrostats/planers/ribbons have never been an easy market to sell in the high end "speaker world" and it would be even harder to do much damage to Stax in the high end headphones market (Stax is VERY well reputed among audiophiles, and has decades of experience behind them). Many companies have tried, and most have failed, or at least have died out after a long struggle. Magenpan and Martin Logan seem to be surviving in the long run, but the likes of Sound Labs and Newform Research seem to be struggling (not to mention Quad). So if there is such little space for speaker manufacturers in this sub-segment of an already limited (high end) marketplace for speakers, then what kind of volume could you hope to achieve with headphones? The market research would likely begin and end by looking at how Stax has struggled (despite their excellent reputation, they've had a TON of product failures over the years).

To invest valuable time, energy and capital into an area with an extremely limited marketplace, just doesn't make sense if you are John Grado. This is a company that has been around for 50 years, but yet has no experience whatsoever in the murky waters of electrostats. Why start now when you're finally at a point where you can watch the company that you've invested your life's work in crank out the product with cash cows such as the SR-60 and RS-1, etc. John strikes me as a very practical businessman, and one who has no false aspirations of setting the world on fire at this point in his life.

I'm not saying it won't or can't be done (i.e., an HE-90 quality electrostat for $3,500 or less), but I don't think it's realistic to expect a company the size of Grado Labs to take on this challenge. Given the current success of Grado's product line, the history of the company as a makers dynamic headphones only, and John's stated objectives, I'd be shocked if (by reading this thread or otherwise), he decided to switch gears and go into electrostats. The ONLY way this might make sense is if he wanted to develop a product line that would compete with Stax from top to bottom.

The better company to ask this question of would be Stax, but I suspect that there answer would be that an Omega III would do nothing but destroy the market they already enjoy for Omega II (a very successful product by all accounts, especially in the last couple of years).

interesting anecdote: how many people out there know that stax has been around since 1938?

Wmcmanus - Thanks for clarifying even further, the reality of the situation; i.e., that we are unlikely to obtain such a headphone from Grado or Stax. Market realities, and the need to protect the market positions of ones products, rules. But, it still seems unreasonable that the best headphone ever produced, will just disappear, never to be revived. I hope that producing and marketing a lower cost headphone that matches or exceeds the performance of the HE90 will tempt some company, somewhere, at some time, which will be to all of our benefit.

In other words, a PRS-1 Head-fi Edition.

I think Stax will do it, but they've been slow to announce (and in fact haven't announced) anything about an Omega III (or whatever their next flagship product might be called). Their normal product development life cycle would suggest that another top model should at least by now be on the planning horizon, but no word yet. Chances are that when it does come along, the changes relative to the Omega and Omega II will be incremental and not revolutionary in any way. Some people already prefer the Omega II to the HE-90, so I'd very much doubt that Stax would completely revamp their approach.

What I've heard is that Sennheiser had a big quality control problem with their HEV90 amps., and that this is the reason that they stopped producing their HE90 headphones. If that's true, then today's situation is quite different than it was two decades ago; i.e., several companies are now marketing perfectly good amps for driving electrostatic headphones, and more such amps are becoming available all of the time. So, all that a company such as Sennheiser, Stax, or Grado now needs to do is to produce and market a superior electrostatic headphone, *without* bothering with the development of a matching amplifier. Such companies can now leave the development and marketing of such amplifiers to others; i.e., there is no longer a need to market an electrostatic headphone and amp as a "matching pair." So, it seems to me, that this situation of having numerous electrostate headphone amps readily available, should make it much easier for both small and large firms to produce and market superior electrostatic headphones. This would also give lots of other small manufacturers the opportunity to develop and market all sorts of amps. for an expanding electrostatic headphone market, which I think is now happening anyway.

Oh boy, don't make me laugh on this one. They can't even duplicate 2nd rate Soviet technology let alone 1st line Western stuff. They can't make the engines for Vietnam era Soviet jet fighters since they don't have the materials technology, they can't even make & refine the alloys which go into those engines, nor can they machine them to the required tolerances.

Computers. Do they have a single chip fab that can crank out say, a Pentium IV CPU? Or the last couple generations of GeForce and Radeon GPUs? Nope. They have factories for assembling graphics cards and so forth, but anyone can shell out a few million bucks for Universal and Siemens SMT machines and do that. Which brings me to the next point, they can't even make those machines, they can't duplicate them even if they wanted to.

They don't have the machines which make the machines to make goods. The infrastructure and tech base isn't there. Think of a pyramid with the product you're trying to build at the top. Everything you need to build that product is under it, and has to be there in order for you to succeed. The Chinese don't have it, not even close.

i would have to agree with this.

the chinese currently excel in making high quantity low(er) value items like clothes, toys and some electronics.

production low quantity high(er) value items (golf clubs, small engines, radio eq, amps, speakers, microchips etc) are a distinct minority (or completely nonexistent) and usually of dubious quality and/or origin.

I only used China symbolically. There are lots of other countries that this type of project can be subcontracted to. Are Germany, the US, and Japan the only countries that can assemble a high quality electrostatic headphone? I doubt it.

my goodness - why do you persist in going down this narrow (and lonely) path??!

do you have any idea of the logistics, let alone the cost, of starting an overseas operation? who is he going to hire? will he have to import talent? what about salaries? equipment? tax on that equipment? existing customers (and contracts) these subcontractors already have? language barriers? duties? taxes (overseas and local)? materials? QC? all it will take is one bad product to sink the hard-earned reputation of a boutique company like grado amongst newcomers to hifi. how many times is he going to have to come over each year to supervise things? how much is a return ticket to any european country? or singapore? or korea?

building an electrostat is not as easy as following A, then B, then C, then...

and all that for a market that is way smaller than that for dynamic headphones!

i can understand your desire to see grado soar - i honestly wish that too. but like icarus, i do not wish that desire to fly high be its undoing.

Come to think of it. Maybe HE-1 would be the better model name.

You're right. It's time for me to hop off this treadmill. In time, perhaps others will take over.