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Headroom says...

post #1 of 11
6/13/02 at 5:28am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
The RS1 are well-constructed, with drivers matched to .05db and voice coils made of Grado's ultra-high purity, long crystal, oxygen-free copper.
Hi!

Well, it doesn't seem like .05 dB matching from that graph...

Could you tell me in what range they matched them?

And this is especially weird saying from the same people that created the measurement graphs!

JUST CURIOUS...

Moonwalker
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post #2 of 11
6/13/02 at 10:47am
Hello. That is not the left and right channel. One is the measurement for the Grado, and the other is an average of what I believe they consider to be the 10 best headphones or something like that.

Go to their product measurement section. I believe they give an explanation there.

Edwin
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post #3 of 11
6/13/02 at 11:05am
actually, i think that is the left and right channels. it could just be a problem with the way they measured it.
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post #4 of 11
6/13/02 at 4:45pm
It is not the left and right channels.
The measurements are performed with different signal amplitudes, as the change in amplitude does change the response.
A quick look at the bass response reveals that it does not change with changing amplitude but the highs do.

No manufacturer, no matter how cheap, would be able to sell cans that have 3db variation between the right and left channels.
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post #5 of 11
6/13/02 at 6:42pm
actually it is the left and right channels. check out griffdog's post here:
http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showth...0&pagenumber=2

i've tried measuring headphones before, and in my attempts i have encountered variations like that. i could measure the same headphone several times on the same equipment and get different results because of different placing of the headphone on the coupler and headband pressure.
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post #6 of 11
6/14/02 at 6:44am
Thread Starter 
Hi, skippy!

Quote:
actually it is the left and right channels. check out griffdog's post here:
Yes, I think you're right. It means left and right earcup measured, the next two graphs - normalized and smoothed & normalized show the same left & right measurements, only affected by "tuning" them to the "ideal" transmission curve made from selected 10 best phones.
That is, all show L&R channels, but printed differently because of processing the later two graphs. First response is raw, without normalizing to "ideal" phone, next two are relative differences from 0dB, the ideal into-ear transmission curve!

Hope that helps.

Your
Moonwalker
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post #7 of 11
6/14/02 at 1:06pm

Re: Headroom says...

Quote:
Originally posted by Moonwalker
And this is especially weird saying from the same people that created the measurement graphs!
headroom may have made the graphs, but grado labs came up with that product specification. it says so on the box, and on their webpage.

http://www.gradolabs.com/product_pages/rs1.htm

so maybe we should take it up with them..?
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post #8 of 11
6/18/02 at 7:01am
Thread Starter 
Hi!

I'm curious to know if Grado can confirm their statement about matching drivers. If somebody writes something as good thing (here 0.05 dB difference), I'd like to confirm by the listening test/measurements. Senn Hd-600 seem properly matched, better than 1 dB difference. So why Grados RS-1 (and others) seem so bad matched together??

To make it clear: Grado says 'matching to close tolerances' as one of the 'GOOD POINTS' and I see (and heard from someone here) the matching of Grado drivers isn't strong point on those phones. (especially from Headroom graphic)

Quote:
No manufacturer, no matter how cheap, would be able to sell cans that have 3db variation between the right and left channels.
Well, recephasan, even the mighty Senn HD-580 are built to 3 dB tolerances between l & r channel, so I wouldn't say NO ONE would be able to sell cans with that differences. Many do..

Your
Moonwalker
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post #9 of 11
6/18/02 at 7:17am
First of all, again there is the issue of accurate measurements as already mentioned.

And secondly there is also the issue of matching of how many points and at what frequency? Is it just 1 point at 1khz? Etymotics for example are matched throughout the frequency range, not all headphones are matched as rigorously.

I personally do find that many headphones start to vary above 8khz in matching, but also at higher frequencies placement and ear canal differences start to make large differences as well.

In fact probably one of the reasons Etymotics may sound well matched besides just quality control is stricter placement tolerances and less outer ear canal interaction given a seal. However with supra-aural headphones like Grados...variation in placement can matter a lot.

In the end, you just need to realize nothing is going to be manufactured to perfection, but neither are your ears...so just go with what sounds good. If you want to find out yourself how much mismatch there is, make a tone test throughout the spectrum and throw on a pair of cans. Reverse L/R channels to make sure it isn't your ears. And fiddle with placement to see how much it really matters especially in high freqs.
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post #10 of 11
6/18/02 at 8:41am
Thread Starter 
Hi!

Quote:
I personally do find that many headphones start to vary above 8khz in matching, but also at higher frequencies placement and ear canal differences start to make large differences as well.
Tim D, I agree completely here.



Quote:
If you want to find out yourself how much mismatch there is, make a tone test throughout the spectrum and throw on a pair of cans. Reverse L/R channels to make sure it isn't your ears. And fiddle with placement to see how much it really matters especially in high freqs.
Done MANY TIMES! I know I have some differences to what I perceive at 1,2 kHz (seems coming a bit from the right side) and 1,6 kHz (that freq. coming a bit from left side), but that phenomenon is more or less the same when auditioning ANY HI-QUALITY phones. But I know more cheap phones to jerk quite wildly at other freq. areas too, indicating driver mismatch.

I ask: WHY GRADO MENTIONED THAT WHEN THERE'S NO REAL MATCHING TO SPEAK ABOUT?

Other brands don't mention that at all or, like Sennheiser, make sensible statements, like 3dB matching in HD-580 or 1 dB matching in HD-600, (what about Big O or STAX?), not like 0.1 or 0.05 dB like Grado does. I think it's MAYBE possible TODAY? in military areas or space research, not mass (even when not so mass like Beyer or Senn) produced gear like Grado are.

Your
Moonwalker
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post #11 of 11
6/18/02 at 12:21pm
Quote:
I think it's MAYBE possible TODAY? in military areas or space research, not mass (even when not so mass like Beyer or Senn) produced gear like Grado are.
What makes you think the RS-1s are mass-produced? They certainly make less RS-1s than they do HD600s. I don't doubt Grado at all; they're a small, family-operated outfit that makes quality gear. I have no reason to doubt their claims about the RS-1.
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