Best online vendor for supplements? - Page 3

I am surprised nobody has mentioned www.dpsnutrition.com. This is where I buy all of my supplements.

Ok CookieFactory, you want some facts--lets go.

You stated, “The difference in hydrolyzed whey and whey isolate I contend it is largely insignificant, especially when cost is introduced as a factor. Your isolate absorbs two minutes faster, and all of a sudden you're Mr. Olympia?” This is absolutely false and it shows very clearly that you do not understand the difference between Hydrolyzed Whey and Whey Isolate. Hydrolyzed is well documented as being one of the fastest absorbing proteins known. Whey Isolate absorbs more slowly. Sorry, but the science is there and you obviously haven’t read it. Absorption rates were a factor in this argument, but you had it completely backwards as to which was which and what rate was more important.

You stated, “Why would I want pure egg white or casein in my protein shake?” Again this demonstrates a clear lack of any real understanding about different types of protein. Egg Whites have one of the best amino acid profiles of any bodybuilding protein. As for Micellar Casein, it is one of the slowest digesting proteins you can get. That brings us to your next false statement.

You stated, “Protein shake use is meant for post workout where fast absorption in a specific time window is critical, not as a meal replacement.” Again, you’re wrong. That is only one purpose of a protein shake. The whole idea is to trickle protein into your system at a rate that your body can put it to use. Unless your personal chef is making steaks for you every few hours, you need protein shakes to keep your protein levels high throughout the day. Post workout is only part of the equation.

You stated, “One serving PW would be considered "large quantities?” when referring to hydrolyzed whey. This totally depends on the percentage of hydrolyzed whey in the standard serving size of approximate 30g. If that 30 grams contains a high percentage of hydrolyzed whey, then yes, it is too much for your system to handle at the rate of speed at which hydrolyzed whey absorbs.

Finally you advocate the use of simple sugars in a protein shake with this quote: “1) a PW protein shake mixed with dextrose or another simple sugar source is first priority.” Again, you’re wrong. A post-workout shake should be mixed with a source of carbohydrates in approximately a 50-50 ratio, but simple sugars are the absolute worst form of carbohydrates you can put in your body. There are much, much better alternatives. If you were genuinely knowledgeable, you’d know what they are.

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing and a little bit of knowledge is, at best, what you possess. Maybe “butt kicking” comes off a hyperbole to a kid with an attitude, but to someone with a little bit of reserve and a sense of humor, it’s an entirely accurate statement.

A mix of 1/3 Egg White, 1/3 Microfiltered Whey Isolate and 1/3 Micellar Casein is clearly superior to a mix of Hydrolzed Whey and Whey Concentrate, period. If my 20 years of trying nearly every major brand of protein blend on the market, including both of the ones in question, isn’t enough to convince you, then a genuine study of the different forms of proteins available and their purposes in a bodybuilding regiment should be. Better quality ingredients in a ratio that provides for an appropriate short-term amino acid release, while also providing for an appropriate sustained amino acid release, equates to a better protein blend. If you’d ever made such a study, you’d already know this.

You’ve made enough false statements in your posts to show your true colors. You very clearly do not know what you’re talking about and it’s sad that you would go to such lengths to convince people that you do.

With that, I’m truly out of this thread.

I know I will be flamed, but it just isn't healthy to take many amounts of various supplements. I'm not a doctor, but I would think that taking four and five plus supplements daily would cause future problems for your liver, heart, etc. Especially if water is not apart of your daily diet. Do you all research before you indulge in these products?

There is also a sort of satisfaction when gaining performance without supplements. Not to knock anyone taking them as I have taken protein before and am considering creatine, but I can keep up with a lot of ppl in my gym taking creatine, protein, amino acids, etc.

Just my 2 cents. This is not to offend anyone as I HAVE taken protein before.

You've said a lot, but in the end what is the major difference? What is the impact? Whey isolate absorbs slower, and this is supposed to be a benefit? You can stat facts but where is the applied value?
In PW you want to have a fast absorbing source of protein. This is basic knowledge that anyone in physical training, especially someone whose been, "doing this for 20 years," should know.

This protein sources are great, you have no argument from me there, but the point is why in a protein shake where the main point is the fastest absorption of protein? I do not want a slow digesting protein in my PW shake, that defeats the whole purpose. If I want a good source of casein I'll eat cottage cheese before bed!


"Trickle protein into your system at a rate that your body can use?" Whey is by nature a fast absorbing protein. Protein shakes are are not meant for, and do not conducive to putting your body into an anabolic state for any decent amount of time. Again, protein shakes are meant for fast absorption of protein, not for day-long anabolism. Update your facts.

This a common myth in bodybuilding nutrition. There is no conclusive evidence that the body can only absorb x amount of protein of y time span. Carbs, fat, and protein are your basic building blocks. However for the sake of humoring you, let's assume I intake 30g of ideal hydrolyzed whey, i.e. 100% whey by weight. Even in this ideal case, 30g is still well under what advocates of this school of thought consider to be max amount of protein the body can absorb at one time.

Now this is just flat out wrong. In fact this is so wrong that it leads me to seriously question your knowledge, let alone "expertise," in bodybuilding nutrition. First off, a 50/50 ratio? If you following these guidelines you either seriously intaking too much protein, or way too little carbs PW. Let's say you use 2 scoops of your "butt kicking," whey for 56g of protein. Thus by your equation it follows that you only take 56g of carbs? Now unless your workouts consist of nothing but light stretching, 56g of carbs PW is nowhere near enough. You have just depleted both liver and muscle glycogen and you think 56g is enough for recovery? I beg you to post a picture; I really want to see what a "serious," bodybuilder who has such a "kick ass," nutrition regimen looks like

Secondly, do you know what insulin is and what it does? Do you know how to maniuplate your body's release of insulin to create an anabolic state? I seriously doubt you do, so I will find medical journal sources for you in the next few days. You claim to be done with this thread but really, I really think you should read up and maybe learn a thing or two.


Antiquated training methods compounded with deprecated nutrition all wrapped up in a closed mind makes a pretty sad bodybuilder. Now I don't know, maybe your training methods were considered gospel 20 years back, but training techniques and athletes have come a long way since then. I suggest you refresh your knowledge on this subject lest you become that old guy at the gym, wearing mid-thigh length shorts, and always talking about the good ol' days of doing 100 pushups.

I suppose you intended to use the term, "kid," in a derogatory way, but it's really shows your tendency toward making presumptions while ignorant of the facts. Resorting to ad hominem attacks may relieve some of the impotence you feel from "debating," on the internet, but really it's just sad. Anyway, if by "kid," you mean someone who's young enough not to be set in his ways, someone who's not afraid to admit when he's wrong, and is always willing to learn new things, then yeah, I guess I am a, "kid." Take care old-timer.

Unfortunately your body's preference (or non-preference) for building muscle over fat is largely genetics (or a function of what steroids you use ). However there are some things to keep in mind to minimize fat gain:

1) If your body puts on fat easily, try clean bulking with something like 500 calorie surplus per day.

2) You might find it more effective just to bulk without any regard to fat gain, and then when you reach a certain bodyfat (or when summer is here ) start to cut. This seems to be the route many people take as it's generally more effective, and less micromanagement.

3) In the end the most important thing to remember is your caloric intake. I could get into optimal macro-nutrient combinations but that's really more for the super-dedicated who need to micromanage every meal.

Yeah, most people don't do much research before they start supplaments, they just follow the crowd. I myself waited 2 years + and studied creatine before i decided i wanted to take it. PLus taking anatomy & physiology helped me understand how these will affect the body.

There is a satisfaction in not taking supps and being big, but after a while inorder to progress you need to take them. Their just supplaments, not steriods. At times it does bug me that people count on supplaments more than they count on just pure food...

Correct me if i'm wrong, isn't a PWO Shake supposed to have 3:1 ratio of carbsrotein?

Exactly.
Although according to JPR you have no idea what you're doing either

i can bench press 700 lbs.

I do it by eating mcdonalds cheeseburgers everyday.


what the HELL do you guys know about anything...


HUH?

yea (thought so).

[QUOTE=CookieFactory]You've said a lot, but in the end what is the major difference? What is the impact? Whey isolate absorbs slower, and this is supposed to be a benefit? You can stat facts but where is the applied value?
In PW you want to have a fast absorbing source of protein. This is basic knowledge that anyone in physical training, especially someone whose been, "doing this for 20 years," should know.


First, protein shakes are not for just PW. Protein shakes are supplements. Supplement to what..... meals. The idea is to keep protein available for absorption throughout the day... hence the recommended six small meals vs three large ones. You want slow steady protein absorption.



This protein sources are great, you have no argument from me there, but the point is why in a protein shake where the main point is the fastest absorption of protein? I do not want a slow digesting protein in my PW shake, that defeats the whole purpose. If I want a good source of casein I'll eat cottage cheese before bed!

You do want slow absorption. The point is not the fastest absorption its the steady supply of amino acids. Making all the protein available to quickly will only result in them being stored as fat or excreted.




"Trickle protein into your system at a rate that your body can use?" Whey is by nature a fast absorbing protein. Protein shakes are are not meant for, and do not conducive to putting your body into an anabolic state for any decent amount of time. Again, protein shakes are meant for fast absorption of protein, not for day-long anabolism. Update your facts.

Good protein supplements, are again supplements, and can be used for the specific desired effect. Supplements spaced properly with meals ARE conductive to keeping your body in an anabolic state. You seem to think the protein shakes serve only one purpose (PW) when they can be used for mulitple goals.



This a common myth in bodybuilding nutrition. There is no conclusive evidence that the body can only absorb x amount of protein of y time span. Carbs, fat, and protein are your basic building blocks. However for the sake of humoring you, let's assume I intake 30g of ideal hydrolyzed whey, i.e. 100% whey by weight. Even in this ideal case, 30g is still well under what advocates of this school of thought consider to be max amount of protein the body can absorb at one time.

There is no conclusive evidence what each individual can absorb at what rate. But there are certainly limits defined by each individuals metabolism. Certainly common sense tells you certain individuals process and use protein more efficiently than others BY THEIR MUSCULATURE. Certainly you know you cant absorb 10 pounds of steak at one.... say 1 hour sitting, even if you could eat that much that fast.



Secondly, do you know what insulin is and what it does? Do you know how to maniuplate your body's release of insulin to create an anabolic state? I seriously doubt you do, so I will find medical journal sources for you in the next few days. You claim to be done with this thread but really, I really think you should read up and maybe learn a thing or two.

This area is in serious debate within bodybuilding circles on this subject and I havent decided which I believe. But when you manipulate blood sugar you have to be careful not to add fat as opposed to muscle. Again individual variation leaves me questioning any.... one way and only one way theory.


Antiquated training methods compounded with deprecated nutrition all wrapped up in a closed mind makes a pretty sad bodybuilder. Now I don't know, maybe your training methods were considered gospel 20 years back, but training techniques and athletes have come a long way since then. I suggest you refresh your knowledge on this subject lest you become that old guy at the gym, wearing mid-thigh length shorts, and always talking about the good ol' days of doing 100 pushups.


What antiquated training methods? Have you learned some new way to move. Have the basic core exercises; bench, squat, deadlift, row etc. been replaced with something else. Have the various overload methods known for decades been changed? Are our bodies different now? The basic principals remain the same. Furthermore, heredity will have far more influence on how you respond to training than any diet regimen. I have seen guys with the worst possible workout habits and diet make far more progress than myself and others. I do know diet-wise I make the best progress(more muscle /less fat) using the higher quality slow absorption protein supplements combined with several small meals. I also know that heavy lifting with lots of the core exercises gets the most muscle on me.

Now dont take this response as an attack.... PLEASE. I am interested in seeing your information; particularly regarding insulin uptake. Have you ever noticed how well diabetics respond to weight training?

I am no expert but I have followed diet and nutrition throughout my life of nearly 50 years. I think jrp703 has many valid points as to what I understand to be the optimal supplement regimen. I follow the latest nutrition articles out of interest (my mother was a registered dietician) so I am not out of the loop. I see you as focusing on a narrow use for your supplements... which is fine. But there is much more to the whole of bodybuilding/ diet / supplementation than what your addressing post workout. I will be honest that I tend to side with jrp703. But I am open to your information so I will be looking for your response. If I learn something that will help me I am all for it.

Protein shakes are supplements you are correct. By the very definition of supplement, it is not meant as a meal replacement. Of course you can use it as such, but eating real sources of protein would be far more beneficial.
I think the main point where I disagree with you and J is the use of protein shakes. Here's how I see it:

1) The central ingredient of most protein shakes is whey.
2) Whey intrinsically is a fast absorbing.
3) In addition to being fast absorbing, it is in powder form to maximize surface area, AND is dissolved into a liquid.
4) Liquids and solids are processed differently by the body. Simply put, liquids are absorbed much faster.
5) Taking 1-4 together, you can see a protein shake is made for fast absorption. What is the result of adding casein and egg white protein? It's still powderized, it's still dissolved into an aqueous solution right? Now your guys' contention is that protein shakes are used to maintain an anabolic state throughout the day. However a powderized and liquid solution intrinsically cannot do this well with respect to how the human body processes liquids!

If you want to maintain an anabolic state eat protein and fats together. Cottage cheese + peanut butter, steak, etc. Fats slow digestion, and protein intrinsically is more difficult to digest than carbs. This is the way to keep your body in an anabolic state throughout the day, not protein shakes.



Protein, carbs, and fats are the basic maconutrients. At their smallest level they are amino acids, sugars, and lipids. If x amount of protein cannot be absorbed in y time, then it should apply to fats and carbs as well no? What would you say to someone giving you the following advice:

"Go ahead and eat those krispy kreme donuts! It doesn't matter if you eat 5 boxes of them, as long as you eat them in 1 hour, most of it won't be absorbed and you won't get fat!"

Is this a valid statement?

Movements haven't changed much but how you apply them and how you organize them has. HIT, doggcrap, etc are all training methods. The core movements haven't changed, but how you apply them has.
Our bodies haven't changed but our understanding of the body, and how it reacts to stimuli has. Did we have perfect knowledge of the human body 20 years ago? Of course not, and nor do we have it today. Therefore training science and nutrition are constantly evolving.

Heredity does have more influence on your bodytype than anything else, this is true. However does this mean we should not consider our diet and training regimen? We cannot control our heredity therefore I have not focused on it in this thread, however what we can control is our diet and training regimen and therefore these things are meaningful and are of interest.

I see no attack in your post, I see no snide comments on what "serious," lifters do, no insinuations on how since I don't agree with you I must be some "kid," who has no clue. In fact your post is how a civil debate should be carried out.

As for diabetes as you probably know there is the hereditary kind, and the kind you get from years of uncontrolled insulin spikes. Obviously manipulating insulin spikes might not work well for one with diabetes, however the diabetic is the exception, not the rule. Most non-hereditary diabetes can be attributed to our diet of heavily processed foods. Eating a krispy kreme donut is a heavily processed carbohydrate with a lot of fat. Eating this causes an insulin spike which will also shuttle fat to your cells. Years and years of this kind of diet will result in problems with how your body handles insulin and hence, diabetes.

Post workout when your body is depleted of glycogen there is a window of opportunity where your body processes nutrients more efficiently. Taking in simple sugars at this point will go to recovering lost glycogen. When combined with a protein shake, the insulin spike shuttles the protein (and whatever else is in the bloodstream) into your cells. This is why one takes something like dextrose with their PW shake.

Insulin is a very powerful growth hormone and manipulating it for bodybuilding gains is a complex subject. We could get into it further, but I'll leave it here for this post. I'm interested to hear your viewpoints on insulin and diabetes.

Since their are so many well knowledged people entering this thread I might as well ask for advice. Where do you all stop with supplements? How many is too many? I think too many can be harmful, but what do you all think? I'm thinking of getting back on protein and taking CEE. Are there any complications between the two? Are there any brands I should look out for?

Also, this summer I'll be working for definition. I'm wondering if excess water removal supplements(like xpel) are unhealthy and are they effecient?

I've been researching different supplements for about a year and a half, but didn't want to risk anything and have had pretty good gains without. Plus the guys at GNC will tell you that you need to buy any and everything.

[QUOTE=CookieFactory]Protein shakes are supplements you are correct. By the very definition of supplement, it is not meant as a meal replacement. Of course you can use it as such, but eating real sources of protein would be far more beneficial.
I think the main point where I disagree with you and J is the use of protein shakes. Here's how I see it:

1) The central ingredient of most protein shakes is whey.
2) Whey intrinsically is a fast absorbing.
3) In addition to being fast absorbing, it is in powder form to maximize surface area, AND is dissolved into a liquid.
4) Liquids and solids are processed differently by the body. Simply put, liquids are absorbed much faster.
5) Taking 1-4 together, you can see a protein shake is made for fast absorption. What is the result of adding casein and egg white protein? It's still powderized, it's still dissolved into an aqueous solution right? Now your guys' contention is that protein shakes are used to maintain an anabolic state throughout the day. However a powderized and liquid solution intrinsically cannot do this well with respect to how the human body processes liquids!


You are acting like digestion is instantaneous. Even liquids need time to be processed. Liquids by their very nature dilute digestive enzymes and slow the digestion of some nutrients.

Why use eggs for iinstance? Eggs are a much higher quality protein. The better the balance of all the essential amino acids the better the absorption

It was never my contention protein drinks are used to maintain throughout the day. I said it can be used for that purpose; just like for your purpose you use them post workout. You can also use them for dieting when you are trying to trim rather than bulk up.



If you want to maintain an anabolic state eat protein and fats together. Cottage cheese + peanut butter, steak, etc. Fats slow digestion, and protein intrinsically is more difficult to digest than carbs. This is the way to keep your body in an anabolic state throughout the day, not protein shakes.

I agree the best way is to eat food and thats what I do. But its always been my assumption thats why you use a supplement.... your somewhere that you have no access to quality protein...and thats the only time I ever use them. If you have access to food why is a supplement needed. I do see the value of an easily digested liquid following a workout. I see the value of a protein drink to cut up too.



Protein, carbs, and fats are the basic maconutrients. At their smallest level they are amino acids, sugars, and lipids. If x amount of protein cannot be absorbed in y time, then it should apply to fats and carbs as well no? What would you say to someone giving you the following advice:

"Go ahead and eat those krispy kreme donuts! It doesn't matter if you eat 5 boxes of them, as long as you eat them in 1 hour, most of it won't be absorbed and you won't get fat!"

Is this a valid statement?

Yes and no. There is to much sugar so all the sugar will not be absorbed and used by the body for energy... it will be converted to fat....your point. So too the 10 pounds of steaks example I used will be absorbed, but not all as protein, and that was my point. The excess protein will be converted to fat just like the doughnuts. If there is insufficient glycogen then the protein can be converted for energy. Eating a personal excess of any nutrient will result in the storage of fat regardless of whether its protein, fat or sugar. Lets define my statement and say there is a limit to the absorption of any nutrient or the excess will be converted by the body for another use.

Does that seem valid?



Movements haven't changed much but how you apply them and how you organize them has. HIT, doggcrap, etc are all training methods. The core movements haven't changed, but how you apply them has.
Our bodies haven't changed but our understanding of the body, and how it reacts to stimuli has. Did we have perfect knowledge of the human body 20 years ago? Of course not, and nor do we have it today. Therefore training science and nutrition are constantly evolving.


I would like to know in what way they are being applied thats new? I see these new workout terms that are nothing more than a rehash of the same methods I used. I think your seeing these new terms and lacking history assuming their new. I picked up a magazine the other day and they were detailing a workout. This is where you line up a series of weights.. say 60/50/40/30/20/10. You do as many reps with each weight as you can, no rest between sets, until failure. What do you call that today? I dont remember what they called this type of method in the magazine. But we used to call it RAILROADING. This and numerous other Weider Principles or whomever principles have been around for 50 years. Giant sets, circuit training, split training, partials etc. etc. are the same moves but with new names. I have personally seen nothing thats REALLY NEW.


Heredity does have more influence on your bodytype than anything else, this is true. However does this mean we should not consider our diet and training regimen? We cannot control our heredity therefore I have not focused on it in this thread, however what we can control is our diet and training regimen and therefore these things are meaningful and are of interest.

I am well aware of this and I obviously do take this in to consideration. But the tone of your response had me thinking you believed these methods guarentee results independent of anything else period.... or that not following them precludes any gains and resulted in no or minimal progress. I had a friend who could get ripped eating twinkies... literally. So I know diet and training pale in comparison to natural potential.

Sometimes you cant reason with someone with potential like that, when they are getting results in spite of there methods, and not because of them. If you are making progress why change is their attitude. Well you know when you hit those plateaus that if you keep doing the same thing you dont get better; particularly when your overtraining.



I see no attack in your post, I see no snide comments on what "serious," lifters do, no insinuations on how since I don't agree with you I must be some "kid," who has no clue. In fact your post is how a civil debate should be carried out.

As for diabetes as you probably know there is the hereditary kind, and the kind you get from years of uncontrolled insulin spikes. Obviously manipulating insulin spikes might not work well for one with diabetes, however the diabetic is the exception, not the rule. Most non-hereditary diabetes can be attributed to our diet of heavily processed foods. Eating a krispy kreme donut is a heavily processed carbohydrate with a lot of fat. Eating this causes an insulin spike which will also shuttle fat to your cells. Years and years of this kind of diet will result in problems with how your body handles insulin and hence, diabetes.


My family has the hereditary kind but the diet to combat the disease remains the same. I have read the reason diabetes suffers can often respond well to muscle building is their intrinsically high insulin level shuttles protein to the cell whenever overload (training) plus protein is available. No need to add a sugar its already there. Before this process was not understood.... now it makes sense.

Post workout when your body is depleted of glycogen there is a window of opportunity where your body processes nutrients more efficiently. Taking in simple sugars at this point will go to recovering lost glycogen. When combined with a protein shake, the insulin spike shuttles the protein (and whatever else is in the bloodstream) into your cells. This is why one takes something like dextrose with their PW shake.


Here is the info I wanted because the other side argues you can force excess (theres that word again) glycogen into the cell that will be converted to fat in the cell. You build some muscle, some fat if you have to much sugar available. Thats where this process needs more explanation to me. I dont want more size anymore. I want tone.

Liquid absorption of course is not instantaneous, however in comparison to eating solids, it's much faster. Therefore that's why immediately PW the recommendation is a liquid shake, not a cup of cottage cheese.

Eggs are a good source of protein, but why not just eat an egg white? The original argument was the fact that it was in brand x protein powder, that protein powder "kicks the crap out of," brand y protein powder.

Sure protein shakes can be used throughout the day, but this is not what they are designed to do. The main advantage of a protein shake is to capitalize on its liquid form for faster absorption with respect to solid sources of protein. This faster absorption is essential for that PW time window where glycogen must be repleted and catabolism stopped.
Drinking shakes throughout the day is not an effective way to promote any lasting anabolic state.

Also I would not recommend using protein shakes as meal replacements if you are cutting. The reason being losing weight is a function of your caloric intake. A protein shake will not keep you full, where as something high in fat, protein, or fiber will.


A protein shake is designed for fast absorption that's why it's in a liquid form. PW is the time when fast absorption is critical and that's why a shake is used and not a solid. That is the primary benefit of this protein supplement.

If you have the capacity to carry a bottle with protein powder in it, why not just bring a chicken breast in a little plastic bag?


What's the best way for a track athlete (100m, 200m, etc) to train for endurance in his/her area of expertise? Is it running long distances very slowly, or is actually simulating a 100m race the best method? Recently there has been some studies that have challenged the status quo training methods. Which one is correct?

Movements is only half (or even less) of the equation. I think you would agree there have been advances in human biochemistry in the last 20 years? As we understand more about the body and how it responds to stimuli, we can better optimize our efforts. An analogy would be, science is knowledge and engineering is knowledge applied. When science changes, so does engineering.


I'm not sure, I would need to research this further to comment on it.

I'm not too keen on bodybuilding magazines. A lot of the times they just give bad advice. Other times they list Pro bodybuilder routines which, unless you are also using steroids, are not really relevant for the average weight-lifter.

Good resources on bodybuilding are:

the forums at www.bodybuilding.com - Other the unusually high number of idiots on here, there are several people who know what they are talking about. The "Workout Programs," "Exercises," "Nutrition," and "Losing fat," forums are all good resources. Avoid the Misc forums lest you lose all hope in humanity.

forum at www.elitefitness.com - less idiots than www.bodybuilding.com, but less active as well.

http://www.johnberardi.com/ - all around good resource on nutrition.

http://www.t-nation.com/ - other than shameless plugs of their own products, this is a decent resource.