New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

GW Labs DSP, first take

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
The GW Labs DSP uses technology licensed from Monarchy, and is in many ways the next generation of the Monarchy DIP. However, it adds some very interesting features. What it does (in part):

jitter reduction
signal isolation and boost
reclocking
sample frequency conversion

It works the same as any other jitter reduction device, plugged between transport and DAC, but with one important difference. There's a little switch on the front that changes position between 44.1 and 96 KHz. Unlike some other jitter reduction devices, the DSP does not attempt to recover the timing from the source. Instead it takes the digital sampling and reclocks it, using its own internal clocks. It accepts any digital signal between 32 and 96 KHz. It then outputs at either 16/44.1 or 24/96, at the flick of a switch.

I got the DSP, and initially hooked it up with Acoustic Research Pro Series Digital Interconnects. I wasn't impressed. However, I switched over to Elco DC-32 digital interconnects, and the story got very interesting (the Elco's are no longer made, and when they were discontinued at about $45 at Audiogon were a steal. I'm sorry I only got a half dozen of them). The difference between cables is enough to make anyone who thinks digital interconnects don't make a difference think again. It's a much more dramatic difference than the upsampling effect, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

With the Elco's in place, the DSP produced a major improvement in the digital signal. Feeding an ART DI/O->SHA-1->HP-1, there was a greater ability to hear individual instruments out of a group. Very small sounds that were on CD's I had listened to many times showed up...things I had never heard previously. Lower noise floor, more detail, better extension at both low and high end...I'm really glad I got this.

I did mention that this device does upsampling. I was really curious to see what improvement it made on the sound. At first, I couldn't hear any difference at all. A/B is as simple as a flick of a switch, and there just wasn't any difference to be heard...then. However, after getting used to it, I tried again. The CD at this time had some very light cymbal work in the background, almost inaudible in itself, but this is where the character of the upsampling showed itself...and it's not particularly good. With a 44.1 source, upsampling to 24/96 seemed to take the light cymbal work, and brighten in, but not in a good way. The metallic nature of the brush on the cymbal was diminished. Flipping back to 44.1, the cymbal regained its metallic sound, and it was easier to hear the brush across the metal, rather than a smear of sound. The more time I spent comparing, the easier it was to hear that the upsampling was producing a more digital kind of sound...while staying at the same sample rate sounded more like music. It's all very subtle compared to the digital interconnect effects, and the effect of the DSP itself. However, for the time being, I'd have to say that the upsampling done by the DSP isn't worth bothering with, and may be slightly detrimental. This is an early impression, and subject to change.

Despite my lack of enthusiasm over the upsampling, I'd recommend this unit easily (with the caveat that buying from a place with a good return policy is always a good idea with this type of device). This is the fourth jitter reduction device I've used (others were Theta TLC, Monarchy DIP Mark II, Monarchy 24/96), and the GW Labs DSP is IMO far better at cleaning up the digital signal than any of the others I've heard. The increase in digital signal strength is also a big plus...some DAC's, in particular the ART DI/O, that may have trouble locking on to a signal will have a much easier time with the boosted signal. Using external sync, my DI/O was able to grab and lock onto the signal much faster than it has been able to at any time in the past, with any source. That's worth the price to me right there (list price $399, demo unit at Audio Advisor was $229).

A very nice improvement in the digital signal, even if you forget about the upsampling.
post #2 of 21
I have had my GW Labs Dsp for a month now and I love it. It really showed me the capability of my EVS Millenium 1B Dac. The upsampling feature opened up the soundstage and magnified the low level details in the recordings. Excellent Product!!!!!!! Arrowmark
post #3 of 21
Just installed my GW Labs DSP this evening. I'm not sure how I feel yet...ask me in a month. First impressions are generally favorable.
post #4 of 21
Just a couple of comments:

- The device always has to do clock recovery, in order to be able to sync to the incoming spdif signal and read it. A different thing is that the read spdif data is reclocked, and the incoming clock ignored at the d-a conversion.

- If this device really reclocks the incoming data, then it effectively eliminates all incoming jitter due to cable or transport. All the posible jitter at the output would be exclusively due to the device internal clock.

If so, the digital interconnect used can't have any effect (jitter) on the quality of the sound, as long as there are no wrong bits received. If there were wrong bits received (really difficult thing to happen), then very noticeable clicks and pops would be heard, and the device would be just unlistenable.
post #5 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Ricky

If so, the digital interconnect used can't have any effect (jitter) on the quality of the sound, as long as there are no wrong bits received. If there were wrong bits received (really difficult thing to happen), then very noticeable clicks and pops would be heard, and the device would be just unlistenable.
Here we go again...

I'll start out by pointing out that I'm a layman, not particularly technical, so feel free to point out my logical errors.

Why clicks and pops? Lets assume that there are some errors being transmitted in a digital signal, despite all recovery attempts. Some are slightly mistimed. What effect would we predict?

Well, a redbook signal is 44.1 KHz. A 100 Hz sound should have approximately 441 samples from which to be extrapolate the wave form. If some of those sampes are not quite timed properly, the sound should be pretty impervious to one or two mistimed samples.

Now take a 10,000 Hz sound. The waveform has to be extrapolated from only 4.41 samples. Any error in timing on any one of them, and that waveform is going to be distorted...the absence of redundancy would make the high end more vulnerable, not to mention more difficult to extrapolate in the first place.

I believe there was an earlier argument that there was no reason why jitter would affect the high end rather than random errors across the frequency spectrum. Rather than clicks and pops, you'd hear an incorrectly timed signal as distortion of the high frequency signal. Not unlike what some audiophiles like to call "digitis".

If the DSP Pro can receive all of the correct bits, reclock them correctly, and reject any reflections etc, then yes, theoretically jitter should be eliminated. And if its execution of these tasks is anything less than perfect...

IMO a good improvement to digital playback, but not perfect.
post #6 of 21
Quote:
Originally posted by Hirsch

Why clicks and pops? Lets assume that there are some errors being transmitted in a digital signal, despite all recovery attempts. Some are slightly mistimed. What effect would we predict?
What I was intending to say is that if incoming jitter is totally eliminated, the only remaining source of "imperfections" in the received spdif signal should be wrong bits, that is, "0" or "1".

The only data transmitted through a digital spdif cable are "0"s and "1"s values, one after another.

If a wrong "0" or "1" is received, the 16 bit sample that contains that bit can be enormously changed. For example in a 8 bit sample, 01110101 (117 decimal) with the 3rd bit changed would be 01010101 (85 decimal), and that gross error would translate into a very audible click, if isolated. If continuous errors of this kind happened, lots of terrible noise and distortion would be the result.

The problem with incoming spdif jitter is just at the clock recovery, not sample "displacements", as I have attempted to explain, because samples are not displaced, bits are displaced.

If bits are slighly displaced, that could translate into jitter in the recovered clock. If bits are very displaced, that would translate into bit errors.

Also note that in spdif data it is impossible to interpolate wrong or missing samples, simply because there is no way of knowing if the received bits, and consequently samples, are ok or are wrong. There is no error checking or recovering.

Quote:
I believe there was an earlier argument that there was no reason why jitter would affect the high end rather than random errors across the frequency spectrum. Rather than clicks and pops, you'd hear an incorrectly timed signal as distortion of the high frequency signal. Not unlike what some audiophiles like to call "digitis".
Jitter can indeed be an issue, mainly at the form of frequency modulation distortion, which can be easily measured, and I believe may be audible if is high enough.

But jitter is only an issue if the transport is quite bad, or the cable is very bad quality and/or long, and also the spdif "receiver" has poor clock recovery schemes, and does not reclock the signal.

I have read from more technically experienced people, that the clock recovery schemes are not very good in some standalone DACs.
post #7 of 21
DAY 2:

This thing is really starting to grow on me. The high end is detailed, but without the harshness that I've learned to expect from CD's. But it's almost like I've grown so used to that brightness that I reflexively feel like something is missing if it isn't there.

The more I listen, the more I like....
post #8 of 21
Thread Starter 
It can get better. I'm trying one of my VD Power 3's with the GW Labs DSP. All of a sudden, the upsampling isn't causing the sound to deteriorate. Differences are subtle, but present. In either mode, the noise floor is lower. Hmmm....
post #9 of 21
Quote:
Originally posted by Hirsch
It can get better. I'm trying one of my VD Power 3's with the GW Labs DSP. All of a sudden, the upsampling isn't causing the sound to deteriorate. Differences are subtle, but present. In either mode, the noise floor is lower. Hmmm....
I had all of my digital signals going through my MSB Digital Director. Once I remembered this (oops!!) and sent the signal directly to the DSP, the upsampling was much cleaner. I guess that there is something about recovering the "clock" vs recreating it that doesn't go well together.

I'm getting more and more out of it. It's getting better by the hour...I wonder if there is a burn-in associated with this thing??
post #10 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by elrod-tom

I'm getting more and more out of it. It's getting better by the hour...I wonder if there is a burn-in associated with this thing??
Absolutely! The improvements are subtle but real. It's definitely much better now than when I first tried it.
post #11 of 21
Are these anti jitter devices essential to a system?
I am trying to put together a desk version of uh..hi fi and find I am enticed to keep spending.
I got a pcdp with toslink out, a JMT amp on the way; the only thing is the DAC.
Should I just stop and spend on my home system?
thanks,
md
post #12 of 21
Pioneer DVD transport = $175
Art DI/O = $120
DI/O mods = $265
GW Labs DSP anti jitter = $399
Good SP/DIF cables = $100

= $1060 source!!!

Yanno, there comes a point where you have to weigh this against paying for a good source that doesn't jitter and has a good DAC.

Hirsch, I swear you are telepathic. I was reading about jitter theories, the Monarchy DIP, and the GW Labs DSP only a day or so ago... never mind the timing about tube rolling. It's too bad we don't live in the same neighborhood!
post #13 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by millerdog
Are these anti jitter devices essential to a system?
I am trying to put together a desk version of uh..hi fi and find I am enticed to keep spending.
I got a pcdp with toslink out, a JMT amp on the way; the only thing is the DAC.
Should I just stop and spend on my home system?
thanks,
md
The anti-jitter devices are tweaks. They can improve the sound in some systems, others might not find an improvement at all. For a portable system, forget it, even if the PCDP has optical out these things need AC power. For home system, best bet is to buy from someplace that has a good money-back policy. Audioadvisor sells demos of the DSP at a substantial discount from time to time (I paid $229).

Essential? No. An improvement of my sound in home system, yes, similar to the effect of the VD power cords. YMMV.
post #14 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Nick Dangerous
Hirsch, I swear you are telepathic.
I knew you were going to say that
post #15 of 21
Quote:
Originally posted by Nick Dangerous
Pioneer DVD transport = $175
Art DI/O = $120
DI/O mods = $265
GW Labs DSP anti jitter = $399
Good SP/DIF cables = $100

= $1060 source!!!
For that price, and less, you could get a standalone good quality cd player from a reputable brand, and not have to worry at all about jitter, and I guess the quality would be better.

I think it is a myth that a separate transport+DAC is always better than a cd player. With the former, you are always subject to jitter issues due to clock recovery. With the latter, no.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav: