New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

about cables - Page 4  

post #46 of 81
that's what I want to know too, HD-5000. like I said in my first post, it's as if he wants to let us know that he was making fun of us on another board. very constructive.

I'm well aware that measurements show little to no difference in cables, but I know what I'm hearing. you can pontificate about placebo effects as much as you want, but it doesn't change the fact that cables do sound different. I'd reccomend trying out a pair of cables again; just be sure to use those two things on the side of your head when you do it, and keep a cable in your system for a few weeks before swapping it with something else. and buy something decent! try the outlaw PCA, it's cheap and good. not much investment, very obvious improvement in sound. to me at least.
post #47 of 81
Now hold on Neruda, Ricky doesn't know how to measure any differences, therefore there can't be any. That's good science!
Mind, ears, and case closed.

Happy listening!!
post #48 of 81
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Ricky, let me ask you this. Why did you post that? Not trying to be hostile here, but why the hell did you even sign up for Head-Fi? Just to slam jude's review?
Quote:
that's what I want to know too, HD-5000. like I said in my first post, it's as if he wants to let us know that he was making fun of us on another board. very constructive.
Well, maybe it was not very polite with Jude's review, I have to concede you that point, and I apologize for that. When I did that maybe I was not in a "polite" mood, maybe because I found the George Cardas interview too disgusting, I mean, George Cardas fake pseudo-scientific techno-babble explanations just to justify his expensive cables. My main goal was this interview, and not so Jude's review.

Quote:
Now hold on Neruda, Ricky doesn't know how to measure any differences, therefore there can't be any. That's good science!
Well, not me, but I should add, not anybody. Hey, do you really believe that if this cable elusive parameters existed, they wouldn't have been investigated years ago? Do you really believe scientifics are a bunch of fools? Do you know that at serious audio and acoustic magazines such as JAES or JASA you can read scientific papers about the most complicated sound interactions/phenomena?. Do you know that your speaker coils and your equipment PCB tracks are plain, bare copper wire?

Quote:
Paranormal phenomena have a habit of going away whenever they are tested under rigorous conditions. This is why the $740,000 reward of James Randi, offered to anyone who can demonstrate a paranormal effect under proper scientific controls, is safe."
-Richard Dawkins
That's the point! This is what exactly happens with sound differences with measurabily similar cables. And at rec.audio.high-end there are a group of people who are willing to pay some money to anybody who can perceive such differences under rigorous controlled conditions.
post #49 of 81
Ricky, I see you responded to pretty much everyone else's posts but mine
post #50 of 81
Ricky,
My point, tongue in cheek, was that the differences are real, they're quantifiable, they're repeatable, and to be sure, measurable, IF we bothered to characterize the complex transfer function comprised of subtle phase, frequency, and amplitude anomalies.

Those measurements are undoubtedly very small. The human ear is an incredible instrument with truly remarkable dynamic range capabilities. A trained ear can instantly discriminate when there is a phase, frequency, or amplitude anomaly at work in a sound system that is completely inaudible to an untrained ear, even when that anomaly is pointed out repeatedly.

It is precisely by this training that I discovered that the channels of my SAC amp were wired out of phase with one another the instant I first heard it. Yet SAC themselves had produced who knows how many copies with the same defect and for who knows how long they’d been on the market, yet nobody said a word. They simply assumed that the amp didn’t sound very good I guess and sold them off to one another quietly hoping it would all go away. When I first noticed the problem and corrected it in my amp, I published my findings, and even those who sold the amp commercially, denied that such a thing could possibly be, for quite some time. As I persisted in my assertion, eventually one vendor actually checked with the factory and found that my finding was indeed true.

My point is that some of us indeed hear things that are VERY real, and VERY repeatable, even though they aren’t heard by everybody. Eventually people figure out how to measure and quantify those subtleties that we hear.

For your edification I’ve enclosed something I posted in an earlier thread some time ago regarding the human ear’s remarkable sensitivity.

Cheers!

Psychoacoustics is an inclusive term embracing the physical structure of the ear, the sound pathways, the perception of sound, and their interrelationships. Psychoacoustics, quite a recent term, is especially pertinent to this study because it emphasizes both structure and function of the human ear.

The stimulus sound wave striking the ear sets in motion mechanical movements that result in neuron discharges that find their way to the brain and create a sensation. Then comes the question, "How are these sounds recognized and interpreted?" In spite of vigorous research activities on all aspects of human hearing, our knowledge is still woefully incomplete.

Sensitivity of the ear
The delicate and sensitive nature of our hearing can be underscored dramatically by a little experiment. A bulky door of an anechoic chamber is slowly opened, revealing extremely thick walls, and three-foot wedges of glass fiber, points inward, lining all walls, ceiling, and what could be called the floor, except that you walk on an open steel grillwork.

A chair is brought in, and you sit down. This experiment takes time, and as a result of prior briefing, you lean back, patiently counting the glass fiber wedges to pass the time. It is very eerie in here. The sea of sound and noises of life and activity in which we are normally immersed and of which we are ordinarily scarcely conscious is now conspicuous by its absence.

The silence presses down on you in the tomblike silence, the first 10 minutes pass, then a half hour. New sounds are discovered, sounds that come from within your own body. First, the loud pounding of your heart, still recovering from the novelty of the situation. An hour goes by. The blood coursing through the vessels becomes audible. At last, if your ears are keen, your patience is rewarded by a strange hissing sound between the "ker-bumps" of the heart and the sloshing of blood. What is it? It is the sound of air particles pounding against your eardrums. The eardrum motion resulting from this hissing sound is unbelievably small-only 1/100 of a millionth of a centimeter or 1/10 the diameter of a hydrogen molecule!

Is this awesome or what?

The human ear cannot detect sounds softer than the rain of air particles on the eardrum. This is the threshold of hearing. There would be no reason to have ears more sensitive, because any lower-level sound would be drowned by the air-particle noise. This means that the ultimate sensitivity of our hearing just matches the softest sounds possible in an air medium.

Accident? Adaptation? Design?

That’s good science!!
post #51 of 81
More food for the cable sceptics.
I have just made up some new leads for my DIY phones[previous
were senn cast offs] from Van Den Hul flexicon B4 cable.
They certainly sound different....Must be my imagination eh?

Lower Capacitance and resistance plus shielding, different materials etc than the senn item.


Someone else ought to give this stuff a try say on the venerable
old HD600.
The cable is twin core 3.5mm od has reasonable flexibility and
is easy to solder.
Plugs could be a problem at the phone end though.

The cable is also available silver cored too.

OH and the B4 costs £5-6 per meter ,£15 per meter for silver.


Setmenu
post #52 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by setmenu
Lower Capacitance and resistance plus shielding, different materials etc than the senn item.
To be fair to the objectivists that recognise this as an effect on the sound. Perhaps you should check out this site. http://sound.westhost.com/
Go to the articles section and just read all he has to say. You may not agree with it but you would be stupid not to read all sources in front of you. As for me i am still undecided as to whether a cable can make a difference. But please before posting anymore in this thread read the article. Any feedback on it would be welcome please help me to see what you see. Are there flaws in his logic?

Edit: Considering some of you may not want to read that whole site (your loss ) i copy and pasted this from the preamble).

A quick summary of the topics to follow (in the cable discussion, at least) would be ...

Power leads will rarely (if ever) have any effect on the sound, provided they are of reasonable construction and are not inducing noise into (unshielded) interconnects. The only exceptions are those that use filters of some sort, which will reduce the noise floor in areas where interference is a problem.
Speaker cables can (and sometimes do) sound different with a given amplifier and loudspeaker combination, even where they are well designed and of reasonable guage. Excluded are very thin or extremely silly combinations - these will always do something to the sound, rarely good.
Interconnects might sound different, but only if they use odd construction techniques. Generally speaking, all properly (sensibly) designed and well made interconnects will sound the same - excluding noise pickup which is common with unshielded designs.
This is not to say that some people will not derive great enjoyment from the fact that they have spent as much on their cables as mere mortals can afford for their whole system, but this is "enjoyment", and has nothing to do with sound quality. This is about prestige and status, neither of which affect the sound.
post #53 of 81

convince the knower

why do people want to convince some of us that what we are hearing, we are not hearing!
post #54 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by Poddy
You may not agree with it but you would be stupid not to read all sources in front of you.
I don't appreciate being called stupid, just because I do not read what you dictate.
Quote:
But please before posting anymore in this thread read the article. Any feedback on it would be welcome please help me to see what you see. Are there flaws in his logic?
Yeah -- it's logic. I'm an engineer at heart (as opposed to the physics degree I hold).

I guess the better way to differentiate it (and I'm going to make up a word for this) is theoretician vs. practicalist.

I theoretician comes up with the theory, and may even invent an experiment, but it is the engineer who carries out the experiment.

I listen with my ears. I can hear the difference. I don't need to read anything else.

(Stupid, indeed!)
post #55 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by Poddy
To be fair to the objectivists that recognise this as an effect on the sound. Perhaps you should check out this site. http://sound.westhost.com/
Go to the articles section and just read all he has to say. You may not agree with it but you would be stupid not to read all sources in front of you. As for me i am still undecided as to whether a cable can make a difference. But please before posting anymore in this thread read the article. Any feedback on it would be welcome please help me to see what you see. Are there flaws in his logic?

Edit: Considering some of you may not want to read that whole site (your loss ) i copy and pasted this from the preamble).

A quick summary of the topics to follow (in the cable discussion, at least) would be ...

Power leads will rarely (if ever) have any effect on the sound, provided they are of reasonable construction and are not inducing noise into (unshielded) interconnects. The only exceptions are those that use filters of some sort, which will reduce the noise floor in areas where interference is a problem.
Speaker cables can (and sometimes do) sound different with a given amplifier and loudspeaker combination, even where they are well designed and of reasonable guage. Excluded are very thin or extremely silly combinations - these will always do something to the sound, rarely good.
Interconnects might sound different, but only if they use odd construction techniques. Generally speaking, all properly (sensibly) designed and well made interconnects will sound the same - excluding noise pickup which is common with unshielded designs.
This is not to say that some people will not derive great enjoyment from the fact that they have spent as much on their cables as mere mortals can afford for their whole system, but this is "enjoyment", and has nothing to do with sound quality. This is about prestige and status, neither of which affect the sound.
Simply stated, his logic is fataly flawed and his mind obviously closed, not to mention his ears. Try listening. It helps.
post #56 of 81
Hey, just last night I lied down to listen to some music in bed, and as soon as it started playing, I could tell that something was wrong... I checked the connections and found that I hadn't plugged the interconnect at the pcdp end all the way in... *plug*... muuch better

Does this count as hearing a difference in interconnects?

A cheap way to experiment with differences in interconnects would be to build your own ones...
post #57 of 81
Well regarding my previous post.
I now presume that Sennhieser actually use the cable to 'tune'
the sound of the headphone judging by the difference between
the Van den Hul and senn cable sound.

The phones they originally came from [hd 45s I think?] would
not be benifited by the Van Den Hul.

And how about this!
Just inserting a short piece[3inches] of fat [by comparison] Siltech
4/56 silver ic cable into the chain between the headphone
lead and amp output by way of 3.5 mm jack plug connectors
made a difference again....a nice one [the Siltech effect].
A 3 inch piece!...... clearly audible to me.

Add the above to the various changes that can be made to the transducers , ear cups etc [not even considering amps]
and you have........

Serious tuning ability here or a trip to the looney bin...you decide
I can,t.

Not entirely on topic but hell.


Setmenu
post #58 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bloggs
Hey, just last night I lied down to listen to some music in bed, and as soon as it started playing, I could tell that something was wrong... I checked the connections and found that I hadn't plugged the interconnect at the pcdp end all the way in... *plug*... muuch better

Does this count as hearing a difference in interconnects?
No just means it wasn't making a good connection
post #59 of 81
Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bloggs
Hey, just last night I lied down to listen to some music in bed, and as soon as it started playing, I could tell that something was wrong... I checked the connections and found that I hadn't plugged the interconnect at the pcdp end all the way in... *plug*... muuch better

Does this count as hearing a difference in interconnects?
Well, we all have to start somewhere!!
post #60 of 81
Thread Starter 
I much agree with what is said at Poddy's post, at http://sound.westhost.com

Also:

Quote:
Yeah -- it's logic. I'm an engineer at heart (as opposed to the physics degree I hold).
I guess the better way to differentiate it (and I'm going to make up a word for this) is theoretician vs. practicalist.
I theoretician comes up with the theory, and may even invent an experiment, but it is the engineer who carries out the experiment.
I listen with my ears. I can hear the difference. I don't need to read anything else.
But for your little experiment to be valid from a scientific point of view, has to be double-blind, sorry. That's how drugs efectiveness is tested, because that is the only reliable method.

Bias is a BIG distortion factor when comes to detect differences in sound. Humans are prone to overdetect differences in sound. Bias has effect even at non-conscious subliminal levels, so even if you believe you are not biased, bias is something you simply can't control, as we are humans and not machines.

I have had the experience. Some things I thought sounded very different, suddenly sounded very similar if not equal in some cases, when confronted with a properly done blind test. Why not just try it for yourselves? Afraid of doing it? Where's your curiosity? Who's mind closed?

So, it's all about DBT's, but this thread was started before DBT banning. I won't troll at other threads (except maybe the DBT one ;-) ) with this issue.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
This thread is locked