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Why does the last end of the power cable matter so much? - Page 4

post #46 of 66
If you really stopped to think of how insignificant the cable is that is going from your wall (or conditioner even) you'll understand why people have so much doubt

When after the power goes into the piece you are powering there is quite a lot of circuitry that is designed to take in your mains voltage and provide a stable and mostly clean DC source to the various components
Now to think that a cable that only conducts electricity from one point to another can somehow effect the end source really is something hard to believe, especially for me

Now if something sounds different, you have to be able to measure the difference otherwise it’s a bit hard to argue why it is different (is that a fair enough statement?)
you might not be able to look at spec's and know what it will sound like but if something is identical in everyway measurable to something else you'd imaging it to sound the same (right?) and with most everything else there are measurements and specifications that you can get on components or systems that show they are different from something else and you should expect to hear a difference and can use these numbers to state why they are different even if you don’t understand how the numbers ultimately influence the sound
But I have yet to see anything to back up the idea of power cables effects on the end sound in some measurable way....
post #47 of 66
Oh, goodie! Another power cord debate...

For the record, I can hear subtle differences caused by power cords, interconnects, and headphone cables, and can distinguish A from B in blind A/B tests, even when someone tries to mess with me by switching from A to a blank input and then back to A again! I've "proven" this many times over, so when I'm trying out a new cable, I just trust what my ears are telling me.

I've got no idea about the science behind it, and suspect that the "reasons" for cable differences would go well beyond my technical abilities, so I'm just happy to hear what I hear. And thankfully, I don't feel compelled to retest A versus B over and over again. Once a cable settles into a system, I tend to leave it there.
post #48 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaKi][er
Now if something sounds different, you have to be able to measure the difference otherwise it’s a bit hard to argue why it is different (is that a fair enough statement?)
you might not be able to look at spec's and know what it will sound like but if something is identical in everyway measurable to something else you'd imaging it to sound the same (right?) and with most everything else there are measurements and specifications that you can get on components or systems that show they are different from something else and you should expect to hear a difference and can use these numbers to state why they are different even if you don’t understand how the numbers ultimately influence the sound
But I have yet to see anything to back up the idea of power cables effects on the end sound in some measurable way....
Again, blatantly false. Many sources, amps, and cables measure exactly the same, or close enough. But they sound quite different. But i'm sure you knew that already
post #49 of 66
Come to think about it, if it's cleaner power which makes the difference (e.g. by shielding against EMF), it may be measurable in a lower distortion level, and be it marginal -- with the attached device, not the cord! In turn the better sound of an IC may be unmeasurable, because there's no distortion to be measured at all in the cable itself and no reason to assume it could cause distortion.

post #50 of 66
The possible necessity/benefits of shielding consumer audio equipment against RFI/EMI will stay a personal view as far as I can tell by this thread

Anyway, this site has the gear for the believer (BTW I’m not affiliated to that company nor do I have any experience from their products or services)

http://www.hollandshielding.com/
post #51 of 66
Quote:
Now if something sounds different, you have to be able to measure the difference otherwise it’s a bit hard to argue why it is different
Yes, this is true, but you will never get an audiophile to admit/believe this. They claim their ears can hear things that can not be measured, when it is the other way around. You never see high end $100 power cables on electronic testing equipment which measures frequencies in the mhz and ghz range very accurately, but they improve CD players in some unexplained magical way.
post #52 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by meat01
Yes, this is true, but you will never get an audiophile to admit/believe this. They claim their ears can hear things that can not be measured...
Audio devices are meant to be listened to, not measured. The listening result has to be satisfying, and if it is, it's good. You also can't measure the audible differences with amps. But of course you can buy any amp and be happy with perfect specs.

post #53 of 66
If a power cord is or is not audibly better than another I leave to others to decide in the context of their own system and even taking into consideration if their system has enough resolution to distinguish between any two passive parts added/subtracted (resistors,caps,cables,etc).

But if you do a search I have used real world examples of cases where equipment at my workplace has not performed because the current flow through the cord was limited by the capacity of the cord to carry heavy current.This leads me to beleive in essence there is a relationship in cable/power delivered performance.

With heavy current devices like high power amplifiers I can imagine a situation where a peak current demand is limited by shortcomings of the wall plate to amp interface-the power cord.
And since this IS true,no doubt about it at all,and music is a moment to moment thing rather than a steady state thing where current demands change from very little to huge amounts the cord plays more of a role than many realise.
Again this may be audible or not depending on sytem context and the human interface (the listener) so both sides can be and probably are valid from their point of view.

I will never spend hundreds on an AC cable being a tightwad but I will and do make sure I make the best cable i can for cheap,just in case.......
post #54 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by meat01
Yes, this is true, but you will never get an audiophile to admit/believe this. They claim their ears can hear things that can not be measured, when it is the other way around. You never see high end $100 power cables on electronic testing equipment which measures frequencies in the mhz and ghz range very accurately, but they improve CD players in some unexplained magical way.
This could simply be ignorance on part of whatever organization (?) you're talking about.

For example, I knew a guy that had a 7000$ home stereo system... plugged into the wall. This building was built in the early 1900s, I GARUNTEE you he would have benefitted from surge protection/conditioning/EMI reduction/proper grounding. Not to mention protecting his gear in case of lightning or some similar occurence. But alas he somehow wasn't aware of these.
post #55 of 66
Quote:
This could simply be ignorance on part of whatever organization (?) you're talking about.
I am saying that I have worked at 5 different companies with electrical engineers and I have never seen one of them ask for a special power cord when doing measurements on a scope, even with high frequency measurements. It is not because they are ignorant either. If different power cords affected their measurements, they would have used a different cord. They use different probes for different tests, but the power cord never mattered.

I agree that you should protect any audio gear with a surge protector and proper grounding, but you can get those things for $10 without having to pay for a $100+ power cord.
post #56 of 66
10$ surge protectors are pretty much worthless.
post #57 of 66
Quote:
I am saying that I have worked at 5 different companies with electrical engineers and I have never seen one of them ask for a special power cord when doing measurements on a scope, even with high frequency measurements.
not a true test of if something is "audible" or not.

humans are not machines and other variables enter the equation that have nothing to do with absolute values or equipment measurement devices.

as an example :

I can make a 12 bit ADC as the front end interface that will be just fine for damn near anything I want to "measure" but will sound like total crap in a hi-fi system.

The measured has little relation to the "audible" so the crossover of "all the electrical engineers I worked with" has as little validity as does "all" audioiphiles.

Somewhere in the middle between measured performance and audible differences is the real truth and it has been noticed by me over time that many things not measured in the lab but claimed to be audibly by a large amount of people just required a rethinking on how that parameter is measured in relation to how we actually hear things.Not how a "machine" (test equipment) deciphers the information.

just my opinion
post #58 of 66
Some of us care what music sounds like. Others apparently "listen" to measurements. They don't care what the music sounds like apparently, as long as the measurement is there. I am pretty sure any one of us could put together a system that measures nice that sounds like absolute krapola. I'm in this hobby to make the music sound good though. Crazy me.
post #59 of 66
Quote:
10$ surge protectors are pretty much worthless.
Sonic Butchers of the first magnetude
post #60 of 66
First up I don't mean to be controversial but I quote from Dr Siau from Benchmark, when speaking the Dedicated Source Forum. He recently clearly stated that the power supply of the DAC1 was such that the quality of the feed power did not make a difference to performance. He stated power cable improvement would not make a difference.

Dr Siau. As you can see, he backed up his arguement with lab test results. Search for user "jsiau" if you wish to view the whole thread.

Second, having built several voltage dependant resistor surge protectors for less than $5 each I don't agree that they don't work. Having had my home hit by lightening I can assure you that these $1.50 components work fine. Three of them across the three terminal of a power outlet is good protection. What it won't do, and more expensive units do well, is filter or smooth out power drop outs or minor surges. But in terms of "surge protection" these little babies work fine. That's why I have surge protection for non-critical applications and filtered and surge protected outlets for more critical appliances (no need to filter for a toaster hey).

TonyAAA
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