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Why does the last end of the power cable matter so much? - Page 2

post #16 of 66
Power filtering, conditioning, and stabilizing are all legitimate factors...

I know some ppl may be lucky and have clean power, but i'm one of those with dimming lights, and unstable voltage. I live in an apartment, so i'm sure as hell not going to rewire the place. (if it was my house, i would)

So the solution is a conditioner/filter/stabilizer.

As for power cables, it simply assures quality power delivery and quality shielding, perhaps enhanced with RF chokes etc... Just like headphone cables, or interconnects... if we can do it better, then why use junk?

In a high wattage car stereo installation, using 24ga. for power wire will result in mega problems. We use 0/1ga to deliver power, and pay a premium for that size. It works or we would'nt bother, 8ga. cable is far cheaper.

Some people are happy to use junk, and just source their parts and cables at Radioshack. I have no problem with them doing that. Why do they have a problem with those of us who want to do it better?
post #17 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by JaZZ
And it's still debatable if the signal can be altered (measurably) by a power cord at all.
Depends on if the components in question are starved for current...
In the car audio world, this condition is much easier to see.

With home audio, i believe shielding from RF, microwaves and vaccum cleaners and such, is more the issue. Adequate and stable power delivery is always a consideration, but less of a concern in the home.
post #18 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by ]|[ GorE
How is it possible that the last few meters of the power cable can improve the sound ?
I dont get it,all you do is SUPPOSEDLY improve the power from the socket to your component,but what of the lengthy run of power cables used in your house from the power distribution board ?

Why dont you go and change that cable too ? WHy dont you sell everything you;ve got to recable the entire home ?

This power cable thing you have got stuck up your brain is SO wrong,IMO !
The obvious question to you is this: have you compared a great power cord to a stock 16awg cord? If people keep an open mind and actually listen to the differences, we would see far less posts like this. Listening is believing.

Once you are convinced cords make a difference (the easy part), the fact people can't "prove" what the exact reasons are wouldn't bother you as much.

When you decide to actually try listening, don't assume that expensive and/or famous cords are necessarily better. There are certainly expensive cords out there that do more harm than even a 16awg stock cord. I would suggest something reasonable like VH Audio flavor 4 to get started.
post #19 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS
As for the notion of placebo, delusions, etc., the problem is that thousands and thousands of people report improvements with upgraded power cords, including thousands who were skeptical before they discovered the phenomenon. Thus, too many have heard the difference to attribute it to psychoacoustics.
You ought to get over the notion that social agreement, no matter how widespread, is some kind of valid proof of anything. Many more people agreed the earth was flat, and if you tried to sail off the edge you'd fall into space. Why? Because it is obvious to the eyes -- any sane person can see how flat the earth is. It's true too... it looks flat.

Cheers...
post #20 of 66
That's pretty ridiculous, fewtch. If a thousand people sitting around thinking as hard as they can, listening as objectively as they can, come to the same conclusion, you will really toss it out that easily? wow
post #21 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon L
Listening is believing.
Actually, the point is not proving the causes, but the effect, i.e. that you can actually tell two power cables apart. And that is the HARD part.
AFAIK no one has been able to do that. Perhaps someday somebody will. But the more open minded you are, the less convincing your effort will be.

Now, thinking that there is a difference is quite another matter. Why not dig deeper and find out if the perception of difference is really caused by different acoustical output of the power cords or merely by one's imagination? This is the way true knowledge progresses.


Regards,

L.
post #22 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sduibek
That's pretty ridiculous, fewtch. If a thousand people sitting around thinking as hard as they can, listening as objectively as they can, come to the same conclusion, you will really toss it out that easily? wow
Who ever said anything about tossing things out easily? I'd certainly consider their conclusion, but also their methodology (i.e. that "sitting around thinking as hard as they can, listening objectively as they can" is still prone to placebo effect).

BTW, it's a little annoying when a person asks a question, supplies their own answer, and reacts with a smiley . Not a great way to encourage conversation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leporello
Now, thinking that there is a difference is quite another matter. Why not dig deeper and find out if the perception of difference is really caused by different acoustical output of the power cords or merely by one's imagination? This is the way true knowledge progresses.
Amen... nicely put.

BTW, I'm playing devil's advocate here... I'm a "cable agnostic" and don't have strong beliefs either way.
post #23 of 66
Edit -- double post
post #24 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by fewtch
You ought to get over the notion that social agreement, no matter how widespread, is some kind of valid proof of anything. Many more people agreed the earth was flat, and if you tried to sail off the edge you'd fall into space. Why? Because it is obvious to the eyes -- any sane person can see how flat the earth is. It's true too... it looks flat.

Cheers...
Nice straw man argument.
post #25 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leporello
Actually, the point is not proving the causes, but the effect, i.e. that you can actually tell two power cables apart. And that is the HARD part.
AFAIK no one has been able to do that.
No, no one has been able to do it to the satisfaction of others who insist there is no difference. I can tell two power cables apart in my system, in that the difference between the two over long term listening with recordings I was familiar with was obvious. I would probably have much difficulty telling the difference between the two switching back and forth every minute or so, especially on someone else's system with music I am not familiar with. If this is what you mean by "no one has been able to do that," and these are typically the type of "scientific" tests that are employed, you may be right, but that does not really establish very much one way or the other.

And no one has really explained yet -- and I keep asking -- why some who are died-in-the-wool skeptics who really and truly believe power cords couldn't possibly make any difference have found out after they try them that they hear differences. Is the placebo effect such a powerful force of nature that no intelligent person -- even one who goes into a listening experiment convinced that he or she won't hear a difference -- can possibly resist its persuasive influence? I mean shouldn't the placebo effect work the other way too? Is that why the camp that says there is no difference in aftermarket cables is populated by people who refuse to try them? Are they the only ones who have been able to resist the mind-bending effects of the placebo, and only because they have not let themselves be seduced into its powerful sphere of influence?
post #26 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS
Nice straw man argument.
If you think so. Just saying that if the eyes can be fooled, ears probably can be as well. We hear with our brains after all, ears are simply the delivery mechanism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilS
And no one has really explained yet -- and I keep asking -- why some who are died-in-the-wool skeptics who really and truly believe power cords couldn't possibly make any difference have found out after they try them that they hear differences. Is the placebo effect such a powerful force of nature that no intelligent person -- even one who goes into a listening experiment convinced that he or she won't hear a difference -- can possibly resist its persuasive influence?
The placebo effect is so powerful that you can give sugar pills to a cancer patient instead of chemotherapy, and there's a good chance their tumor may shrink or even disappear, as long as they believe they received the chemo. Toss that around for a bit.
post #27 of 66
I still find it amazing that nobody has replied saying they have actually compared a good power cord to a 16awg stock cord and did not hear a difference. Before insisting it's all placebo effect for us suckers who can't wait to part with our money, will any non-believers actually step up to the plate and actually LISTEN to the different cords without prejudice? It cuts both ways.

As to some of the DBT(there, I said it) tests to prove anything, just realize that getting a bunch of audiophiles in a totally unfamilar room, equipment, high on anxiety due to the upcoming DBT, with unfamiliar recording and non-ideal listening seats with many heads in the way, then asking them to identify cord A vs. B after a couple of unfamilar songs, is really foolish. Audio reproduction, especially personal enjoyment of music, does not happen this way.

Put me in my familiar sweet spot in my own room using my own equipment. Now switch stock cord with something like VH4 in double-blind manner and play songs I'm intimately familiar with. I dare anyone to do so and bet money against me
post #28 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by fewtch

..."The placebo effect is so powerful that you can give sugar pills to a cancer patient instead of chemotherapy, and there's a good chance their tumor may shrink or even disappear, as long as they believe they received the chemo. Toss that around for a bit."
I can't believe I read this. I really have to brace my self not to loose my temper here and say something which will ban me forever.
post #29 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glod
I can't believe I read this. I really have to brace my self not to loose my temper here and say something which will ban me forever.
Did I say something untrue? If so, I'm open to correction. To lose <-- (sp) your temper would be downright ridiculous, and certainly wouldn't fix any incorrect ideas I may have. If you can't help but get overly emotional on this topic, why not just go do something else for awhile?

Or is it that you can't handle disagreement on a topic you feel strongly about? That would be a little sad, but nothing new... been on the Net since 1994 and have met quite a few such folks.
post #30 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sduibek
That's pretty ridiculous, fewtch. If a thousand people sitting around thinking as hard as they can, listening as objectively as they can, come to the same conclusion, you will really toss it out that easily? wow
Not a problem at all. Fewtch gave a good example already.
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