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Orthodynamic Roundup - Page 1347

post #20191 of 24682
Quote:
Originally Posted by mypasswordis View Post

 

Sorry, but to be explicit, are those ebay pads you linked the ones you used on the 707? I could use some for my 120R SFI transplant 706. Also still need to buy some replacement pads for my Koss ESP6.

Can you post some shots of the build? I have a set of 701's waiting for SFI's from another can, or HP-1 drivers possibly. Wondering how you approached the interior build.

HA these seem to be popular items all of a sudden.

 

and THANKS Kabeer for that link. Fingers crossed.


Edited by nick n - 7/10/12 at 5:53pm
post #20192 of 24682

BTW, it's nice to see that AT take their damping seriously: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o_0VqdzcOg

 

too bad a yamie driver won't fit triportsad.gif

post #20193 of 24682

Thanks about the Yamahas everyone!  I've been meaning to drop in here.  It was really great to see these graphs and see validation and insight into all my work.  Very exciting. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalbee View Post

Wow... 10kHz slain and buried. I need to do that on mines... >_<

 

Not really.  it wasnt intentional, it's just the natural response of the driver.  I actually spent nearly a year just trying to get flat treble extension out of these Yamaha drivers and I have come to the conclusion that it is not possible.  You can get a bit more extension than this, but you have to create a peak in order to do so.  No matter what material is used or in what configuration, I always wound up with a rough sounding treble compared to the T50rp or stax.  Which these measurements show to likely be coming from this dip because the treble is very clean, and has no more distortion in the treble than elsewhere.  So even if you create a treble peak to get more extension, you still wind up wtih a dip near 10k.  You can see Tyll's measurements of my YH3 with a differnet damping scheme where I had a small peak, and you still see the dip.  (note that the peak in that scheme isn't as big as it looks on Tyll's graphs, part of that is from Tyll's "ideal curve" which has a peak there as well)

 

In this last scheme, I opted for the flattest response possible (along with trying to get of as much resonance as possible).  That's just what sounded best to me.  Giving them a peak in the treble only emphasized this rough quality IMO.  So I think these graphs are a good indicator of the natural FR of these drivers.  Which is great to see.  I was guessing this was the problem, but wasn't sure if it was roll-off or just uneven response. 

 

The lesson I learned in this process and I think this is an important one to keep in mind, is that you can only push a driver so far.  You can clean up resonances, and you can tune the response to a great extent, but you can't create something that's not there.  And there are also some characteristics of the driver that you can't get rid of.  In the end I learned that I had to work with this part of the Yamahas response and stop trying to fight it.  I had to let the treble rolloff there.  Another example- you can see here that the YH1 actually has a bit of low level ringing compared to the YH3 which is cleaner.  The YH100 is actually worse in this way according to my impressions.  So something about the larger driver is creating more resonance, and then the YH100 treatment, while it does help with extension and clarity compared to the YH1, creates more resonance problems than the YH1.   Of course the YH1 sounds better than the YH3 in some ways, it just has a bigger more dynamic sound from the bigger driver, you know what I mean if you've heard an RP18.  But the YH3 does sound cleaner. 

 

Of course, this could be from cup interactions especially since the YH1 has that bloody radar dish in the back of the cups, but it's my opinion that what you're seeing is the driver as I think I have taken care of the enclosure induced resonances.  Just some thoughts for all of you.  I will post YH100 CSD's when I get them, but I expect to see some more significant ringing.  I couldn't get rid of what I heard as some midrange resonance and wound up just sending them off for diagnosis.  They have amazing bass though!  And slightly cleaner treble.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gurubhai View Post

These are RD's own yammers :

 

350x263px-LL-8a430cef_photo1.jpeg

 

I believe this is the picture of the suspects.

 

And, great job RD.

 

Yup!  That's them.  :)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MDR30 View Post

 

What wonderful graphs, makes my heart all warm. The YH1 has the anisotropic driver, right? I remember there was a lively disussion as to its sound compared to the regular HP1 driver. Did you ever draw any conclusion, Wualta? The YH3 is similar to the HP3/HP50 and confirms what I'm hearing. Question is how much the termite housing influences the response.

 

 

Not all YH1's are anistropic, these are not they have round holes.  In fact, I thought it was only a very few HP1's that had the square holes.

 

The holes in the back of the cups helps open up the soundstage and gives them more sense of air, and it does help remove resonances and IME helps wiht treble extension.  But the majority of this response is from the damping scheme.  These graphs shouldn't be considered an indicator of what a stock or modded Yamaha sound like, as I'm doing some unique things with them.  I'll share the schemes for you all.  But I wouldn't want people going out and bidding the prices up even higher expecting great things stock, or great results with easy damping schemes.  I've spent 2 years working on these and for most of that time, the YH1 was very shrill, peaky and resonant and unlistenable IMO.  It's just important to know what you're looking at especially since there are so many lurkers in this thread.  ;)


Edited by rhythmdevils - 7/10/12 at 7:03pm
post #20194 of 24682

@RD:

Thanks for the write-up! Most of my modded headphones have a peak at 10k~12k so the results on yours are very interesting. The only two instances I managed to avoid a 10k peak is by pure luck on a dynamic headphone (10k dip), and by a ~10dB roll-off from 2kHz~7.7kHz on my HP-2 transplant where the 10k peak is still -5dB from 2kHz (this headphone was repurposed for a fun signature).

 

Haven't been modding lately since my hands hurt but I definitely need to get it going again. Kudos to your hardwork on tuning them into what they are today! And punch treble peaks in the face indeed.

 

 

On the other more bothersome hand, my ears haven't been learned enough to hear what resonance is, or perhaps I hear it just don't know it. Can I regard them as excessive vibrations that amplify certain frequencies (can be seen from FR graphs. I guess these are the different shapes of bumps as seen on FR graphs, as opposed to smooth lines) or should I seek them under other definitions?

post #20195 of 24682
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabeer View Post

Maybe im late to the party, but i just heard of this: 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/611049/vsonic-focus-007-the-worlds-first-planar-magnetic-iem-info-expectations-thread

 

Ortho iems? Very interesting, was thinking of ways to make my own wheni had enough spare time, but this now has piqued my interest :).

 

Cool, I've been passively looking for a portable planar setup ever since the SR-001Mk2 was discontinued.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by khbaur330162 View Post

Yup, the pads I linked are the ones in the photos. I must admit the foam is a little stiff. Still comfortable on the "feather light" AT-703 frame for about as long as any supra-aural, I won't retract that statement, but I am still hoping these break in a bit. Also -and I'm not sure if I should be saying this, but I will anyway- eBay seller go_me05 gave me a discount when I bundled two other items with these pads. If you send him a message asking him what he can do for you if you buy two or more pairs he'll probably shave a $5 off, or something. They arrive reasonably quick, too, considering where he's located. Good luck.

 

Stiff is good, I don't want them to compress much when I put on the headphones. Maybe I'll change that statement after actually trying them out. Thanks for the info.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nick n View Post

Can you post some shots of the build? I have a set of 701's waiting for SFI's from another can, or HP-1 drivers possibly. Wondering how you approached the interior build.

HA these seem to be popular items all of a sudden.

 

and THANKS Kabeer for that link. Fingers crossed.

 

Here's what it currently is, it will likely change after changing pads.

 

cyygy.jpg

 

Since the drivers are too small for the washer things to clamp down on, I put weatherstrip all around. As you can see, all I have in there is the layer of thin felt at the back and then the foam rectangle pressing up against the driver.

 

IMG_20120711_000247.jpg

 

The foam donut is stuck into the pads, and there's electrical tape all around the edge. Because moar bass is moar betterer.

 

Edit: It's an AT-702, not a 706. Sorry for any confusion.


Edited by mypasswordis - 7/10/12 at 9:18pm
post #20196 of 24682
Quote:

Originally Posted by rhythmdevils View Post

 

 

 

Not all YH1's are anistropic, these are not they have round holes.  In fact, I thought it was only a very few HP1's that had the square holes.

 

 

 

We have not witnessed any YH1/HP1 with square holes. Anisotropic refers to a different magnet used in the HP1, theres two versions of the HP1 both with round holes.

The only one we have witnessed with square holes (and only seen two pairs of them) is the HP2.

post #20197 of 24682

I refer all new-comers to page one of this excellent thread where Wualta has up-loaded the Yamaha brochure with technical information and sketches, square holes and all.

post #20198 of 24682

Hm, I just saw these on the FS forum:

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/618072/hifiman-he-400-drivers

 

I wonder if anyone here would be able to make use of them?

post #20199 of 24682
Thread Starter 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhythmdevils View Post

The lesson I learned in this process and I think this is an important one to keep in mind, is that you can only push a driver so far.  You can clean up resonances, and you can tune the response to a great extent, but you can't create something that's not there.  And there are also some characteristics of the driver that you can't get rid of.  In the end I learned that I had to work with this part of the Yamahas response and stop trying to fight it. 

Couldn't have said it better myself. Looking forward to seeing the damping/shaping scheme.

 

MDR30: I've never had an Anisotropic here for auditioning, so I've never compared the sound to a "normal" HP-1, but I'd be very skeptical of any claim that the Anisotropic sounds "better" when the levels are matched. Even if the sound quality of a given two HP-1s were found to be different, it would be very hard to prove that the difference was due solely to the different magnetic circuits and not age, crud, or production variation. And "better" per se is a risky claim anytime, but that's a whole 'nother thread.

post #20200 of 24682
Quote:
Originally Posted by mypasswordis View Post

1) Stiff is good, I don't want them to compress much when I put on the headphones. Maybe I'll change that statement after actually trying them out. Thanks for the info.

 

2) Edit: It's an AT-702, not a 706. Sorry for any confusion.

1) Cool, hope they work out for you. Fwiw, I stretched the lips around the baffles, pressed them tightly back into the metal housings and screwed them into place. I just rid myself of the twist-lock pad adapters because they were too big. Looks like you'll put those in-sewn dust covers to good use.

2) Was wondering. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBomb77766 View Post

Hm, I just saw these on the FS forum:

 

http://www.head-fi.org/t/618072/hifiman-he-400-drivers

 

I wonder if anyone here would be able to make use of them?

eek.gif

 

*runs to vacant room, screams silently and dances ecstatically* 

 

cool.gif Pretty cool. Maybe I'll hit him up. ph34r.gif

 

 

 

EDIT - 

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 

For those interested.

P1120093highlight.jpg

 

Oh you have GOT to be kidding me. Not sure what those splotches are you see scattered around, they're not there in person. That break is just about the only thing wrong with this one. Well, at least I'm making progress. I know how to get proper adhesion, I know what the correct time to expose is, and I've recently figured out how to decrease developing time by perhaps 50% which allows for much finer lines like you see in this picture. Gotta cut me some glass and find a hydroponics shop near me for some H2O2 by the liter.

 

From an outsiders perspective this might look exactly like my last "update." From my perspective lines are sharper, less mistakes (close to perfect), and I'm more confident in that I think these results are easily repeatable. Also, I believe I'm that much closer to producing flawless copies that I can begin to try and finally etch. So, not much, but I was happy enough tonight with my results and findings to post a picture.

 

 

 

For future reference, I was using Brasso and TSP to clean the film, of course being gentle while scrubbing, yet still due to particulate matter in the Brasso I was finding circular scratches in the Aluminum. I asked the supplier how I could clean this film, or what the deal was and this was the response I got.

Quote: Steven Liu - Hangzhou Jinxin Filming Packaging Co., Ltd.
usually we have two silver metallizing pet film for usage,one is just only metallized pet film same as i sent,another is coating silver on metalizing face of metalized pet film,usually coating silver metallized pet film is also silver,but coating silver metallized pet film can protect alumunim layer on metalizing face than only metallized pet film without coating,to prohibit to destory aluminum layer and no scratches or oxidation pls undestand and take account my email.

So since this discovery I've just been using a very dilute TSP solution as a degreaser. Adhesion seems fine, no bubbles, no scratches, very clean altogether. But I guess this is just another piece to the puzzle. Perhaps electroplating with Silver isn't a bad idea, or simply buying film with a very thin coat of Silver over the Aluminum layer? Perhaps this is another reason why Hifiman moved over to Gold? *shrugs*

 


Edited by khbaur330162 - 7/11/12 at 11:43pm
post #20201 of 24682

Well I finally recabled and reterminated two of my orthos and... confused_face.gif should I be worried if my HP-2 driver makes a rattling sound (almost like square waves) when playing at high volumes? I think it was since before, but there seems to be a piece of something (maybe the mutated sponge in the stock shell) on the rattling driver's diaphragm.

 

Glad I can at least finally say goodbye to cables being held together by blue tack.

post #20202 of 24682

uhhh click that spoiler above there. That's sure looking good . Wow.

post #20203 of 24682
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick n View Post

uhhh click that spoiler above there. That's sure looking good . Wow.

Thanks! :D Was thinking maybe toner transfer quite honestly until last night. All I needed was a solid flat backing to mount the film onto during developing (and probably etching). Since the film isn't floating, flopping or waving around anymore it lets me be a bit more aggressive with the brush to brush away unexposed resist quickly. I originally thought the brush was bad news, but if you're quick with the whole process you get results like posted above... :/ I'll get a nice flat shallow tray to keep everything submerged juuust enough so that I can see exactly when everything's spotless. Should make the process a bit easier.

 

After this it's etching (whole 'nother story, I'm guessing), making some spacers (whole 'nother story, I'm guessing) and then it's off to the races with mah 820, pew pew. *sigh* What was that again? Chasing something that's chasing something? Yikes.


Edited by khbaur330162 - 7/12/12 at 1:41am
post #20204 of 24682
Quote:
Originally Posted by wualta View Post
MDR30: I've never had an Anisotropic here for auditioning, so I've never compared the sound to a "normal" HP-1, but I'd be very skeptical of any claim that the Anisotropic sounds "better" when the levels are matched. Even if the sound quality of a given two HP-1s were found to be different, it would be very hard to prove that the difference was due solely to the different magnetic circuits and not age, crud, or production variation. And "better" per se is a risky claim anytime, but that's a whole 'nother thread.

 

I agree, in orthos sound is more affected by damping and the number and size of holes in proportion to membrane area (now here's a topic for scientific discussion - what acoustic filter effects are produced in that small space between magnet and diaphragm?). Membrane mass and thickness - 9 my for the mythical HP1A as opposed to 12 my for the regular Yamahas - and stiffness/suspension are also important, of course.

 

But it's interesting that Yamaha put that steel plate on the magnets on the anisotropic, just as PMB did before. Who was first with the second generation orthos anyway, after Wharfedale?

post #20205 of 24682
Thread Starter 

One advantage of the corrugated "pinch" diaphragm is that any possible reflections between diaphragm and magnet will zing off in random directions. In any case, the space is so small that any effects would appear in the ultrasonic range.

 

I really don't know who made the first post-Wharfe orthophones. PMB and Dual and even the Russians seemed to explode on the scene all at around the same time. Which suggests they'd all been waiting for something, like cheap consistent magnets with holes, or cheap consistent diaphragms, or...  Making the dating game more difficult is figuring out which market got the 'phones first. PMB may have hit the German market in the fall of '75, and Fostex first showed up the year before, but only in Japan... etc etc..

 

Aren't all the first-gen Yamaphragms 9 yourcrons of aluminumium deposited on top of 12 mycrons of PET?  EDIT: Har. I had mils instead of microns. Just call me Mr. Stylus.


Edited by wualta - 7/12/12 at 8:44pm
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