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Orthodynamic Roundup - Page 897

post #13441 of 18896
Quote:
Originally Posted by mypasswordis View Post
The pad ID is already as big as it can be (as big as the OD of the driver) and I already reduced damping. I think I decreased damping too much, maybe I need to add some more and push the treble back out into the extremes where it's a little weak right now. I'm also still trying to make a Stax normal bias adapter which will increase bias 50V from stock and change the sound further. I removed the front grilles which actually exacerbated the peakiness and it sounds a lot smoother now. Getting the ET1000 to sound good and be comfortable is actually a lot more work than I was hoping.

Edit: Also there are no reflections in the back since I even made sure to put a circle of felt on the backs of the grilles.
Maybe put the damping back in and put a T50 style baffle donut. Or use smaller ID pads? might tame that treble (only thing i can see left to do apart from your MOAR POWAH approach :/)

Gear mentioned in this thread:

Yamaha Stereo Headphones
Fostex T50RP Closed Ear Stereo Headphones
post #13442 of 18896
@ wualta:
so after you hear the HE5 with the starburst-cutout-felt inside,what do you think about them v.s. the Top Tier ortho T50v1 stock of yours?
are they equal/on par or HE5 are really beat the old king to death ?
post #13443 of 18896
iQEM, I don't think it's that easy. Who knows how many different versions or mods he has shipped. On my system, I was not impressed with the HE-5s, and that was after I checked my disdain for Fang at the door. I was extremely critical of just the can, not the company.

It seems like the HD800s are more source/amp sensitive than even some of our orthos or the ESP/950 & E/90 combo.
post #13444 of 18896
just for the generally speaking,BMF..i know its unfair to compare any cans without same source&setup..well i'm curious on wualta thought about HE5 vs T50v1,since i haven't heard Stax lambda (or SR202 counts as lambda too)?
and i already notice that you and some other guy here were not too impress to them,offcourse i mean the cans not the company.. LOL
post #13445 of 18896
Quote:
Originally Posted by iQEM View Post
just for the generally speaking,BMF..i know its unfair to compare any cans without same source&setup..well i'm curious on wualta thought about HE5 vs T50v1,since i haven't heard Stax lambda (or SR202 counts as lambda too)?
and i already notice that you and some other guy here were not too impress to them,offcourse i mean the cans not the company.. LOL
They aren't bad cans, by any means, and I'm sure dBel84 could extract some awesome magic from them, but were I was being critical is their performance as I heard them on my system for their price versus my T10s, RP18s or SR-Lamdas off a SRD6 via the same CR-620 and Denon DCD-F101 CDP.

If it wasn't so small, I'd mod that little F101 a bit because it's performance is stellar. I wish I knew that all Denon CDPs, SACDPs, or DVDPs had the same house sound. If so then I may seriously consider selling my Sony C2000ES to fund a Denon SACD player purchase. The F101 goes into the console soon, so I'll have to start using the Sony again, and I just don't want to do that...
post #13446 of 18896
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mypasswordis View Post
So that means I'm not completely tin eared.
Well, no, not completely.

Mostly not, no.

Probably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mypasswordis
Anybody know the best way to smooth out resonances in the treble? I notice two peaks, at around 6.5kHz and 12.5kHz, and there's a dip at around 14kHz and stays slightly below flat to 20kHz.
Could be a cavity resonance, could also be reflections from the clamped perimeter of the diaphragm. Try lining anything that might support a 6.5 kHz wave.

We don't often discuss the problem of standing waves on the diaphragm, but remember Strathearn used bits of fluff and fiberglass to reduce interference nodes on their large mid-tweet unit. Fostex in the T30 tried to damp reflections by laying down a bead of silicone grease right at the point of clamping.

This is one of the disadvantages of the clamped, tensioned type diaphragm, and sometimes you just have to trace around with something like an unsharpened pencil til you find the node. As a string player, MPI will know exactly what I mean. On the other hand, this is likely to be a real PITA task. But if thickening the fiberglass/rockwool pads doesn't help get it under control...


Quote:
Originally Posted by iQEM View Post
so after you hear the HE5 with the starburst-cutout-felt inside,what do you think about them v.s. the Top Tier ortho T50v1 stock of yours? are they equal/on par or HE5 are really beat the old king to death ?
Good question. I should have, but didn't, take the T50 to the meet, but-- keeping in mind these impressions are all from a sample size of one (1), I can tell you it's no contest. Which is, after all, as we'd expect. The HE-5 really is, as it jolly well should be, a next evolutionary step up, and the good news is that it has the headstage (as demonstrated by the socalled open-palm test) of a Lambda. At last!

The better news is that it can only improve (or get cheaper) from here. The T50 pointed the way, and finally, more than 30 years later, its successors have arrived. We'll just have to decide whether the price of a new LCD-2 or HE-5 is worth the money, just as we would've had to decide whether a new T50 in 1978 (or a new SR-X Mk3 in 1976) was worth the money.

I was taken aback by the difference between the HD 800 and the HE-5. But on sober reflection, the HE-5 sounded like a stat, and the HD 800 sounded like a very competent dynamic. This is, of course, a short trial with only two different recordings on one setup, and I tend to be seduced by the effortless fluency of the better stats whether this turns out to be added distortion or not, so plug a lot of experimental slop into the results. But even with some big tolerances accounted for, I'm comfortably certain that the HE-5 is, if not more accurate, sure as heck a lot more yeah! (i.e., fun, entertaining, free, liquid, unrestrained, unbuttoned, lively) sounding than the HD 800. I was hoping for a much closer contest.

By the way, this has nothing to do with value for money. If the HE-5 were unluckily (for us in NA) handmade in Germany instead of [presumably] drop-shipped from the factory in China, it might well be priced higher than the HD 800.

Now, the question of headstage. Here comes the really odd bit, and remember, this is only my impression, strong as it may be-- we can't go back and check those impressions today, tomorrow, or next week, which we'd normally do:
Sennheiser, who, I never tire of telling everyone, practically invented headstage in headphone reproduction with the watershed HD 414 and whose headphones have always been dynamite binaural-recording demonstrators, seems to have created an elaborate headphone with only moderate headstage as indicated by the open-palm reflect-the-backwave test. There is backwave coming out of the HD 800, but it's nasty stuff, and bouncing it back into the earcup put a spike of ear-stinging treble into the sound when I did the test at the meet, whereas the same test on the HE-5 gave the same results you'd get with a Lambda or ESP\950, though perhaps not quite as intense: a smooth comb-filter effect through the mids and up through the treble. Even the HD 600 does better on this test than the 800. This doesn't necessarily reflect (heh) the quality of sound you'll hear on the other side of the diaphragm, it's just a test of the quality and quantity of backwave energy. Still... try the test for yourself. It's one headphone test that doesn't depend on the test[heh]osterone level of the amp.

The YH-100 sounding like (not identical to, but like) the HD 800 was a bit of an eye-opener too. Nothing fraught or fussy about this particular YH-100. Stock everything, with a reflex dot, a plain felt disc for damping, I believe a reflex disc too to compensate for inadequately-dense felt, probably another layer of felt only to make the whole sandwich tight enough to hold everything firmly in place, possibly a blu-tack gasket... Like I said, nothing special or unusual. Just the basic stuff we'd learned at the time the thing was modded, which was most likely sometime in 2006.

I'll be getting a YH-1000 to try in a few days. That should be interesting. Thanks, anonymous lender! [waves]

.
post #13447 of 18896
Great write-up! I know exactly what you mean with the yeah! sound of planars over dynamics (which is why I own many many planars and very few dynamics). The K1000 has a slight tendency toward the dynamic sound but somehow enough of the yeah! sound is present for me to still like it, on top of it being very technically competent in everything except the lowest bit of bass extension. Very interesting info on the HD800, especially in regards to the backwave. I will definitely have to try the test the next time I am able to hear one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wualta
Could be a cavity resonance, could also be reflections from the clamped perimeter of the diaphragm. Try lining anything that might support a 6.5 kHz wave.
I have already lined the sintered-metal backs with felt but have not done the circumference and I guess the baffle. I have also removed the front brass/gold colored grille to get rid of unwanted reflections there, and replaced it with some speaker cloth. Perhaps I will order up some mineral wool to place inside, on top of trying a bit more damping of the driver. Otherwise I may have to resort to the pencil node finding thing. I have to admit that part of my drive and willingness to go this far with the ET1000 is so I can say Beyer made a superior headphone 34 years ago to their newest dynamic, the T1.
post #13448 of 18896
Two questions.

How do you tell the difference between the many versions of the Fostex T20?

And Fostex T20 vs. Yamaha HP1?
post #13449 of 18896
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoilermakerFan View Post
They aren't bad cans, by any means, and I'm sure dBel84 could extract some awesome magic from them, but were I was being critical is their performance as I heard them on my system for their price versus my T10s, RP18s or SR-Lamdas off a SRD6 via the same CR-620 and Denon DCD-F101 CDP.

If it wasn't so small, I'd mod that little F101 a bit because it's performance is stellar. I wish I knew that all Denon CDPs, SACDPs, or DVDPs had the same house sound. If so then I may seriously consider selling my Sony C2000ES to fund a Denon SACD player purchase. The F101 goes into the console soon, so I'll have to start using the Sony again, and I just don't want to do that...
some of my friends recable the HE5 with jenna cable balanced, they said to get rid of the harshness...pair em with B22, and so on...
so much of effort (& money) to get it sound right ? atleast that's what i've heard from them...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wualta View Post
Good question. I should have, but didn't, take the T50 to the meet, but-- keeping in mind these impressions are all from a sample size of one (1), I can tell you it's no contest. Which is, after all, as we'd expect. The HE-5 really is, as it jolly well should be, a next evolutionary step up, and the good news is that it has the headstage (as demonstrated by the socalled open-palm test) of a Lambda. At last!

The better news is that it can only improve (or get cheaper) from here. The T50 pointed the way, and finally, more than 30 years later, its successors have arrived. We'll just have to decide whether the price of a new LCD-2 or HE-5 is worth the money, just as we would've had to decide whether a new T50 in 1978 (or a new SR-X Mk3 in 1976) was worth the money.

I was taken aback by the difference between the HD 800 and the HE-5. But on sober reflection, the HE-5 sounded like a stat, and the HD 800 sounded like a very competent dynamic. This is, of course, a short trial with only two different recordings on one setup, and I tend to be seduced by the effortless fluency of the better stats whether this turns out to be added distortion or not, so plug a lot of experimental slop into the results. But even with some big tolerances accounted for, I'm comfortably certain that the HE-5 is, if not more accurate, sure as heck a lot more yeah! (i.e., fun, entertaining, free, liquid, unrestrained, unbuttoned, lively) sounding than the HD 800. I was hoping for a much closer contest.

By the way, this has nothing to do with value for money. If the HE-5 were unluckily (for us in NA) handmade in Germany instead of [presumably] drop-shipped from the factory in China, it might well be priced higher than the HD 800.

Now, the question of headstage. Here comes the really odd bit, and remember, this is only my impression, strong as it may be-- we can't go back and check those impressions today, tomorrow, or next week, which we'd normally do:
Sennheiser, who, I never tire of telling everyone, practically invented headstage in headphone reproduction with the watershed HD 414 and whose headphones have always been dynamite binaural-recording demonstrators, seems to have created an elaborate headphone with only moderate headstage as indicated by the open-palm reflect-the-backwave test. There is backwave coming out of the HD 800, but it's nasty stuff, and bouncing it back into the earcup put a spike of ear-stinging treble into the sound when I did the test at the meet, whereas the same test on the HE-5 gave the same results you'd get with a Lambda or ESP\950, though perhaps not quite as intense: a smooth comb-filter effect through the mids and up through the treble. Even the HD 600 does better on this test than the 800. This doesn't necessarily reflect (heh) the quality of sound you'll hear on the other side of the diaphragm, it's just a test of the quality and quantity of backwave energy. Still... try the test for yourself. It's one headphone test that doesn't depend on the test[heh]osterone level of the amp.

The YH-100 sounding like (not identical to, but like) the HD 800 was a bit of an eye-opener too. Nothing fraught or fussy about this particular YH-100. Stock everything, with a reflex dot, a plain felt disc for damping, I believe a reflex disc too to compensate for inadequately-dense felt, probably another layer of felt only to make the whole sandwich tight enough to hold everything firmly in place, possibly a blu-tack gasket... Like I said, nothing special or unusual. Just the basic stuff we'd learned at the time the thing was modded, which was most likely sometime in 2006.

I'll be getting a YH-1000 to try in a few days. That should be interesting. Thanks, anonymous lender! [waves]

.
much thank's for the answer, Wualta...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeonWho View Post
Two questions.

How do you tell the difference between the many versions of the Fostex T20?

And Fostex T20 vs. Yamaha HP1?
answer 1:
Fostex orthodynamic headphone identification guide - Wikiphonia

answer 2:
which T20's that you would like to compare to HP1 ?
i haven't heard HP1, so i'm gonna pass on this one...
post #13450 of 18896
yeah, the 800 sound didn't strike me as special. It was ok, inoffensive and comfy. A bit like a beige room. Interesting? Yes from a technical and design standpoint. Exciting? Not really. Wham? Nope. Fun factor? Conspicuously missing. Engaging? Sadly not. They left me a bit flat. Glad I got to hear them though. It's a very comfy phone and looks better in the flesh but sonically did nothing for me. I didn't dislike them, they are meh. $1400 worth of meh unfortunately. They'd make a great fosterfone! All-in-all a good thing as I can't afford these hi-end phones anyway I'm very happy I can get exactly what I want for so little.
post #13451 of 18896
x2 on that Smeg...
post #13452 of 18896
Thread Starter 
x3! If we can get that close with simple mods to a stock 'phone, we don't need to throw crazy money at the problem, money that we'll inevitably regret throwing not too much later.

The upshot: we have a new target. Forget the T50v1; try to audition the socalled Neo Orthos, the LCD-2 and/or the HE-5, and aim in that direction. Not because they're perfect, but because they do more things right-- they've solved some of the problems of headphone listening and ortho listening in particular.
post #13453 of 18896
Hmm.. I don't find this ortho hobby particularly cheap.
I got one last month & I have already placed order for two more!

And the worst thing is, I keep searching the bay for more.
post #13454 of 18896
What I like about the LCD-1 is that it adds a spacious holographic headstage to the good old ortho sound. None of my old orthos even get close to that, and that's how it is stock without any mods. (The Grundig sounds more like a collage, everything is more intimate, and that is with a ton of mods)

Although some of the vintage orthos sound great in other ways. If the HE-5 and LCD-2 are even better than the LCD-1 then that would be really hard to resist....
post #13455 of 18896
Speaking of the LCD-1 headstage:

(that is mabye not a picture of the headstage, but of the baffle and the cups. big closeup if you click the little picture there.)

As you can see on the picture, the baffle is very thick. The pads are fastened by going over the baffle, so basically the baffle is most of the black area before the seam of the pads. I think it is unlikely that sound goes through that baffle univited.

But the baffle is secured to the cups using just two tiny screws, near the cup holders. And there is no gasket to seal things up there, just the very thin plastic of the pads that the cups rest on - very lightly too at the top and bottom edges since the two screws are in the middle.

What I tried was to add a foam gasket on the cup-side of the baffe. That increased bass (but apparently not the deepest bass so much) and at the same time ruined the headstage for me. It went from holographic to one-dimensional for me.

(The yellow damping is not glued to the drivers, it is just placed there.)

I have no good theory of why this happened, but maybe it can give damping / modding ideas to someone.

(By the way, I advice against removing the pads on the LCD-1 since it seems possible to damage the circuit going to the drivers when doing that. At least be really careful removing and putting them back on. The circuit is printed on the back of the baffle, and the pad flaps must go over the printed circuit)
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

Yamaha Stereo Headphones
Fostex T50RP Closed Ear Stereo Headphones
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