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What exactly are the technical benefits of driving headphones in balanced operation? - Page 3

post #31 of 68
FYI, here's a RaneNote discussing interconnect options. Good overview of balanced connection here, and the difficulties with connecting balanced equipment to single ended components.

http://www.rane.com/note110.html
post #32 of 68
Something I had posted before with respect to balanced connections:

"In recording and for short cable runs in general, a compromise is necessary between the noise reduction given by balanced lines and the noise and distortion introduced by the extra circuitry they require."

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio
post #33 of 68
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post #34 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by ayt999
Super-Gonzo and rsaavedra... I don't think either of your posts have anything to do with the actual topic of this thread and I would really like it if we can stay on topic. this is an interesting topic for me and want to talk about it without further deviations.
First, I think decorum would advise that ony a mod or the OP have the right to tell someone what they can and cannot post in a thread (so stop with the armchair modding). [edit] Or are you a moderator (is that what Headphoneus Supremus means)?? If so, only read the next paragraph...

Second, in a thread titled "What exactly are the technical benefits of driving headphones in balanced operation," why would you find what they posted inappropriate to the topic??
post #35 of 68
rodbac - I sent you a PM.
post #36 of 68
Quote:
can someone please tell me what this thread is about since I am really confused at this point.
It's about balanced connections, which includes what they are, what they are not, and the (maybe) differences between proper balanced systems and what seems to be a 'pseudo balanced system' as seems to be described in various posts here.

If you think any of the information so far has been OT, I'd like you to consider what the underpinnings of any discussion of the "technical benefits" of something should include.

I think it's clear that all of this has direct relevance. If you don't think so, skip over those posts and simply be grateful to the poster for bumping the thread.

(and PM replied to in a sec)
post #37 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodbac
what seems to be a 'pseudo balanced system' as seems to be described in various posts here.
but that's the only thing I see being mentioned by saint.panda and no mention of wanting a discussion of anything else. (unless I am really missing out on something.) if it isn't the case, then like I said, I'll start a new thread myself dealing with just that.
post #38 of 68
Quote:
but that's the only thing I see being mentioned by saint.panda and no mention of wanting a discussion of anything else. (unless I am really missing out on something.) if it isn't the case, then like I said, I'll start a new thread myself dealing with just that.
I don't think you need a new thread on it (my opinion), but that's up to you.

To be fair, though, I don't think it became clear until just recently that the two were completely different things, at least to me (and a few others, evidently).

Again, though, I think it's worth pointing out that until that was established (that we're now talking about a 'pseudo balanced' system, and not a balanced system as anyone familiar with traditional topology will think of it), this information was directly useful to the thread.

To establish that and then expect any and all discussion of it to cease in a matter of 5 posts (or whatever it was) seems a bit unreasonable.

Either way, I agree and think we can move on if saint.panda no longer cares that this isn't a typical "balanced" system we're talking about.
post #39 of 68
Page 6 and 7 of the blockhead manual explains some advantages of balanced driven headphones.

Balanced differential drive also gives twice the slew rate and twice the voltage swing. The faster slew rate keeps up with and provides faster, more accurate, and precise audio.

The higher voltage swing means louder volume, so to listen at the same volume as unbalanced, the gain has to be lowered or the volume turned down. Once the volume level is down to the same as unbalanced, the voltage swing is the same. The advantage of having two amplifiers on each earpiece is twice the current capacity which is mainly needed for really powerful bass that is fast, accurate and precise. Thats a real slamming snappy power full bass. The more you turn up the volume, the more noticeable it becomes.

The ground wire is not used at the headphone but is used at the amplifier to reference the audio signals to each other and evenly between the power rails. The DC offsets are also driven to the same zero volts ground reference to keep the headphones from having any DC voltage which could damage them.
post #40 of 68
Quote:
Balanced differential drive also gives twice the slew rate and twice the voltage swing. The faster slew rate keeps up with and provides faster, more accurate, and precise audio.

The higher voltage swing means louder volume, so to listen at the same volume as unbalanced, the gain has to be lowered or the volume turned down. Once the volume level is down to the same as unbalanced, the voltage swing is the same. The advantage of having two amplifiers on each earpiece is twice the current capacity which is mainly needed for really powerful bass that is fast, accurate and precise. Thats a real slamming snappy power full bass. The more you turn up the volume, the more noticeable it becomes.

The ground wire is not used at the headphone but is used at the amplifier to reference the audio signals to each other and evenly between the power rails. The DC offsets are also driven to the same zero volts ground reference to keep the headphones from having any DC voltage which could damage them.
That’s pure nonsense, laughable and badly written marketing mumbo-jumbo... read my posts in this thread to understand why I say that.
post #41 of 68
Let's clear this up, since two different discussions are going on.

When it applies to transducers, balanced is refering to an inverted signal in the place of a ground, aka push-pull.

When it applies to signals, it also means that it carries both the inverted signal and the normal signal. This can either drive push/pull amps, or be used in some sort of noise reduction thing.

When referring to the use of balanced amps, it has nothing to do with the noise reduction of balanced, and everything to do with the inversion of the signal in the place of a ground.
post #42 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by wali
That’s pure nonsense, laughable and badly written marketing mumbo-jumbo... read my posts in this thread to understand why I say that.
All of your posts in this thread seem to only apply to balanced cables and noise reduction in signal transmission with cables.

That is not the same thing as driving a headphone with differential signals. The headphone diaphragm is not an active device and does not need a ground wire to be driven by balanced differential signals. Only "type one" balanced devices use ground for a voltage reference which also allows the non-inverted signal to be used as an unbalanced signal with ground. The inverted signal can also be used as an unbalanced signal with ground for opposite polarity.

A "type two" device has no voltage reference to ground and neither signal (inverted and non-inverted) can be used with ground for unbalanced operation. They can only be used with reference to each other. The headphone diaphragm is actually a "type two" device since neither wire is connected to a common chassis. It is only unbalanced when one wire from each diaphragm is connected together at the plug. Removing the three conductor plug allows balanced operation.
post #43 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by dip16amp
All of your posts in this thread seem to only apply to balanced cables and noise reduction in signal transmission with cables.

That is not the same thing as driving a headphone with differential signals. The headphone diaphragm is not an active device and does not need a ground wire to be driven by balanced differential signals. Only "type one" balanced devices use ground for a voltage reference which also allows the non-inverted signal to be used as an unbalanced signal with ground. The inverted signal can also be used as an unbalanced signal with ground for opposite polarity.

A "type two" device has no voltage reference to ground and neither signal (inverted and non-inverted) can be used with ground for unbalanced operation. They can only be used with reference to each other. The headphone diaphragm is actually a "type two" device since neither wire is connected to a common chassis. It is only unbalanced when one wire from each diaphragm is connected together at the plug. Removing the three conductor plug allows balanced operation.
Finally, a post in this thread that makes sense and sounds legit. Thanks!
post #44 of 68
My basic understanding of balanced audio cables/circuits is exactly what I wrote in this thread. I’m not going to argue for the sake of argument...
post #45 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by wali
My basic understanding of balanced audio cables/circuits is exactly what I wrote in this thread. I’m not going to argue for the sake of argument...
Boy thats a good thing, cause a lot of people sure like to argue for sake of argument, but who am I to argue?

Good call on Headroom's market mumbo jumbo...boy we know out of all headphone amp manufacturers Headroom comes first to mind with crazy marketing and non-science...I mean who uses dummy heads nowadays to measure headphones.

That dip16amp guy is pretty shady too...I mean most his posts are in the DIY forum and he even has a DIY amp page going on...

Here are what more noobs say on the topic
www.tripath.com/downloads/an12.pdf

http://www.minidisc.org/classd_amp.html
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