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DAC Input: Coaxial vs. Optical

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 
I finally picked up a coaxial cable for my Benchmark DAC1 and was able to test it side-by-side against my eBay (SonicWave) glass toslink cable. My source, an E-MU 1212M, makes this very simple when combined with a DAC1...the 1212M has both outputs active at the same time (and even gives the option of using either AES/EBU format or S/PDIF on the coaxial output via a button in the software...I used AES/EBU format for the tests, because supposedly it is the "professional" format), and the DAC1 supports both inputs with a toggle on the front that lets you easily switch between them.

The coaxial cable is a nice one...Elco UDC-S (which I got for a bargain price, at least compared to the list price on their website, on a recent Audiogon auction conducted by Andrew from Elco) with custom termination done by Elco (BNC on the DAC1 end, RCA on the other).

I was a bit skeptical that I'd hear a difference between the two...this was supposed to be digital data, after all, so I asked my wife to help me do some blind testing (she was in charge of changing the toggle on the DAC1).

The results? I can hear the difference, barely. And, to my ears, the coaxial sounds better. Better as in clearer, a bit more defined, a bit clearer. Not much...but a little bit. On some songs it's very difficult to tell the difference, but on others (especially electronic stuff with a repetitive set of distinct but distant ambient noises...like the Boards of Canada stuff I tried at one point) it's quite obvious: what sounds like muffled variations in sound on the optical cable sounds like it should on the coaxial, I believe...groups of sounds meant to sound sort of like rain drops.

My headphones for the test were the most detailed and revealing I've ever heard (yes, even compared to the Orpheus + Blue Hawaii combo I've heard on two seperate occasions): Sony Qualia 010 (stock cable, using the DAC1 as amp).

So, there it is...I am now a coaxial cable user, even though I'm connected to a supposedly noisy electrical transport (my computer)...by the way, Benchmark notes very clearly in their manual that the coaxial input is "DC isolated, transformer coupled, current limited, and diode protected." So maybe the argument for a clean optical cable isn't as strong with the DAC1 as it would be with another DAC.
post #2 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrith
So maybe the argument for a clean optical cable isn't as strong with the DAC1 as it would be with another DAC.
Well the DAC1 is the wrong DAC to be trying different digital cable out since it has higher jitter resistance. I'm not surprised you didn't hear much difference.

In my emu 1010 board digital out trials, I found the optical out better. I was using glass toslink vs. stereovox hdxv.

I recommend some nice power cord to your computer, to P300, and after P300 to DAC1. You'll need better power to really test the differences between digital cables as you're in the final strech.
post #3 of 29
Thread Starter 
Oops, I should have mentioned the power stuff:

The DAC1 is plugged into a P300 with a Zu Mother power cord.

The P300 is plugged into the wall using a PS Audio Plus power cord.

The computer is plugged into a Monster Power Strip (w/ version 2.0 of whatever their filter thing is called) using a PS Audio Plus power cord.

Also, I should have mentioned that my wife listened to both, and claimed she heard a difference (I asked her what difference, and she said one seemed a little louder than the other...it was the coaxial), but thought it would be too difficult / time consuming to try to tell them apart using a blind test.
post #4 of 29
Nice. I only saw part of that in your profile. Unless I missed all of that. If so, that's weird... I must be tired but I can't go to bed yet.

You are very close though. A new amp, modification to the emu and DAC1 and you can retire from head-fi.
post #5 of 29
Scrith: Do you know the impedance of the coax? Wouldn't you optimally need different impedance cable for SPDIF (75 Ohm) vs AES/EBU (110 Ohm) for best results? Also, it was my impression that AES/EBU used a balanced XLR connection and cable. Am I missing something, or is it just my neophyte level of knowledge?
post #6 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by agile_one
Scrith: Do you know the impedance of the coax? Wouldn't you optimally need different impedance cable for SPDIF (75 Ohm) vs AES/EBU (110 Ohm) for best results? Also, it was my impression that AES/EBU used a balanced XLR connection and cable. Am I missing something, or is it just my neophyte level of knowledge?
AES/EBU and S/PDIF are digital formats and can be on different physical interfaces such as XLR balanced, BNC coaxial, and TOSLINK optical. The DAC1 accepts both formats on XLR (110 ohm), BNC (75 ohm), and TOSLINK connectors. I'm using XLR balanced with AES/EBU between the DAC1 and the RME Digi96/8 PAD and it works great. Lets me hook other stuff up to the DAC1 on the TOSLINK and BNC connectors.
post #7 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by dip16amp
AES/EBU and S/PDIF are digital formats and can be on different physical interfaces such as XLR balanced, BNC coaxial, and TOSLINK optical. The DAC1 accepts both formats on XLR (110 ohm) and BNC (75 ohm) connectors and only S/PDIF on optical. I'm using XLR balanced with AES/EBU between the DAC1 and the RME Digi96/8 PAD and it works great. Lets me hook other stuff up to the DAC1 on the TOSLINK and BNC connectors.
Ah ... I think I get it. If I understand correctly, it is a function of the particular sound card (EMU 1212M and/or RME Digi96/8 with either going to the Benchmark DAC 1) that allow either digital format (AES/EBU or SPDIF) to travel over the same cable.

Very clever - I guess I'm just too old school, and thought that the digital protocals (SPDIF or AES/EBU) were tied to the physical connection and cable types. Thanks for clearing that up.
post #8 of 29
Thread Starter 
There's an interesting postscript to my comparison. About 30 minutes after I finished, I started getting a few drop outs (short, muted sections...one for every minute or so of playback) with the coaxial input on the DAC1. These were visible on the DAC1 because the red error light would flash each time I heard one.

I tried moving my cable around to make sure it had a good connection (and unplugged and re-plugged it a few times) but that didn't help.

I even tried swapping in another (slightly newer) 1212M card I have (for another computer) and this didn't help.

Finally, I tried moving the 1212M to a different PCI slot (despite the fact that I had my computer carefully set up already to eliminate IRQ conflicts and so forth). I picked the last PCI slot relative to the AGP slot (previously it was in the 2nd to last), which on my motherboard (MSI K8N Platinum2) is orange (the other slots are white). According to what I read, the orange coloring meant it is a special slot with higher specifications, originally meant to be used with an add-in comm board for something like wi-fi. Anyway, using this slot seems to have solved the problem (not a single dropout for several hours of listening).

Up until then, my 1212M had been working great for months (on two different motherboards). So, it seems like for coaxial output (vs. optical) the board may have slightly higher electrical requirements?
post #9 of 29

...

I also experienced dropouts with the coaxial cable from my Panasonic DVD-S47 DVD/CD player. This issue was resolved when I upgraded to a Belden 1694A 75ohm RCA->BNC cable (I was using the stock SPDIF cable included in the package). Perhaps the cable itself was the problem or removing the RCA->BNC converter from the equation helped.
post #10 of 29
I've also done a A and B on coax vs optical on DAC1. The cables I used was Monster cable toslink optical and DIY coax cable with Eichmann bullet plugs. Source was a Pioneer dvd-player.

I know for a fact that the DIY cable is better from earlier experience but I had a really hard time noticing the difference on DAC1 at first. The difference is very small but noticeable if you do some heavy A and B'ing. Imo the sound is a bit recessed in some areas with the optical cable. Some times giving it a sort of "hall" effect in some music which some times gives the illusion of a larger sound stage, this is pretty marginal though. Another thing that is more noticeable is the highs which feels more controlled and not as "edgy" with the coaxial cable. I also experience little more bass in the lower register with coax... Just fills out a bit more then the optical and really feels more musical and better sounding to my ears.

I really didn't know what to expect, I was kind of sceptical about the coax because of the low budget looking adapter that is used on DAC1.
post #11 of 29
Thread Starter 
I am still running with both connections and find myself A/Bing between them from time to time when I'm curious if something I just heard sounds different with the cable I'm not using.

Generally, it's still very hard for me to tell the difference...but there is something there...invariably if I accidentally leave the optical connection on I will "feel' something wrong after a few minutes and find myself switching back to coaxial. Could just be placebo, I know.

I think my optical cable might be a bit damaged (it's pretty beat up from various travels, and I've had it pinched under my computer case a couple of times), so I've ordered another one that is supposed to be really good (according to the lunatics at the audio asylum, at least): Van den Hul OptoCoupler (sounds expensive, but luckily it was not). I'll report the results of my coax/optical A/B tests with it soon.
post #12 of 29
In theory coaxial is better than optical, especially for PCM..something to do with 10x higher jitter on the optical path.

But for DD/DTS streams basically identical. Still I stick with coaxial if possible. The cable is cheaper and more durable.
post #13 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Necros
In theory coaxial is better than optical, especially for PCM..something to do with 10x higher jitter on the optical path.

But for DD/DTS streams basically identical. Still I stick with coaxial if possible. The cable is cheaper and more durable.

Would have to agree that in my experience coax is better than optical. Tried an A/B comparison with a Marantz CD94 feeding the matching Marantz DAC94 using Cambridge and Monster as well as the Marantz interconnects and found that the Coax definitely had a fuller sound with warmer deeper bass. The optical was very precise especially in the midband but a bit too clinical and less euphonic.

Have also tried different quality of coax ranging from bog standard rca to Van Damme, between an M-Audio 1010 soundcard and a Tascam D30 Dat and noticed less difference than between coax and optical. More difference in software being calibrated to match the components
post #14 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilPeart
I also experienced dropouts with the coaxial cable from my Panasonic DVD-S47 DVD/CD player. This issue was resolved when I upgraded to a Belden 1694A 75ohm RCA->BNC cable (I was using the stock SPDIF cable included in the package). Perhaps the cable itself was the problem or removing the RCA->BNC converter from the equation helped.
When I first got the DAC1 I had to use a crappy coax video RCA cable with the RCA->BNC adapter coming out of my motherboard SPDIF output (I hadn't recieved my AV710 yet), and experienced no such droup-outs FWIW.
post #15 of 29
I own a Meridian 566.24 DAC and had it modded by Empirical Audio to accept a USB input. The interface is a tweaked M-Audio Transit USB.

Result? Better than coax AND optical. Jitter is all but nonexistent. This is the best way to go.
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