Receiver upgrade... need help from the Denon folks!

[wakeride74]

I posted a thread over at avs but it only got one response and now that headfi is back up I figured I'd tap this resource as well.

I have a AVR-3801 fed by a Toshiba HDA2 and a Pany BD10A. I have the A2 connected via optical and the 10A connected via 3 sets of RCA's into the "Ext. in" for the uncompressed PCM from BD. I was considering upgrading to the AVR-2808ci which I was assuming would be a reasonable upgrade with newer sound tech, DTSHD, TrueHD, HDMI, etc. The reason I'm questioning that thought process now is due to the one response I did get at avs from what looks like an experienced member who said it would not be an upgrade and that I'd need to look at the 4308 which would still be questionable. I don't understand this and was hoping some headfiers that are into the HT thing could weigh in. Does the 3801 have a better dac, sound processors, etc.??? Would I not hear a sizeable difference moving my HT rig from the 3801 to the 2808ci?? I know new does not always mean better but with the next-gen SQ from the HD/BD movies I thought I was going down a safe path.

Any advice would be much appreciated! I'm also waiting on more info from the guy at avs, hoping he can offer a little more behind his reasoning.

[wakeride74]

Ok so here's the resonse I got from on avs member... makes sense but it also sounds like he may be giving too much credit to the older models and not enough to the newer ones so I'm really not sure how much stock I should put in this... anyone care to weigh in??

Well it's pretty simple here. Fidelity and Features are not really related.

The 38xx series is a decent step up in Components, Build, Clean Power output, and the DACs are already as fine as they get, S/N, ect..ect..ect...

We get caught up in features and software all to much. The 48xx series is an extreme upgrade from 38xx series stuff, much larger than the 28xx to 38xx jump.

Even though it is all the rage, lossless audio and lower end AVR's is more or less an oxymoron in my opinion.

A Denon 4802 running lossy audio is going to slay a 28xx series piece running lossless audio. This is a fact it just seems many people cannot bring themselves to come to grips with.

I owned a 4802 for several years, it really set the bar high for me. When I went to replace it for HDMI switching, it was a tall order to find something I could afford that could at least match that peice of gear. In all other areas, I also could not afford 48xx series equipment.

[virometal]

Interesting query.

There are too many variables for a black and white answer. It all boils down to your hearing ability and the capability of your speakers.

When shopping receivers last year, my slightly above average ears thought:

4306>>3806>>>>>2806

IMO, the DAC's are not as big a deal as the amplifier stage. That makes the biggest difference in a receiver. Crack open a 2x series and compare the power supply to a 3x series. It's obvious.

For your speakers, I would not consider the 2808ci, unless you plan to use it as a pre and purchase a separate amp.

[wakeride74]

Originally Posted by virometal

Interesting query.

There are too many variables for a black and white answer. It all boils down to your hearing ability and the capability of your speakers.

When shopping receivers last year, my slightly above average ears thought:

4306>>3806>>>>>2806

IMO, the DAC's are not as big a deal as the amplifier stage. That makes the biggest difference in a receiver. Crack open a 2x series and compare the power supply to a 3x series. It's obvious.

For your speakers, I would not consider the 2808ci, unless you plan to use it as a pre and purchase a separate amp.

Interesting... from the sound of things even the 3808 might not justify the cost and headache of swaping for my 3801. I may not be the detailed review writing audiophile but I think my ears are above average. I'm sure the next-gen SQ would be an improvement for me but based on what I'm getting it sounds like it would not be enough to justify the cost. If I was shelling out $1400 for a new 3808 or whatever I expect to be blown away by the difference between it and mine.

[Audio-Fi]

I sampled AVR-4308 and I think the Sony STR-DA5300ES beats it every way but the some of AVR-4308 features I wish was on STR-DA5300ES. I also sampled AVR-5805 and I think that is the best on Denon line being it the most expensive but there is better receiver there than that. Look for Yamaha, Onkyo, and Pioneer for other receivers. If you are settling with AVR-4308, I would suggest STR-DA5300ES. My sources are PlayStation 3, HD-XA2, and SCD-XA9000ES. My speakers are for SL, SR, SBL, and SBR is JBL L820. The L and R are JBL L890, JBL LC2 for C, and 2 JBL L8400 for subwoofers. With this setup I think STR-DA5300ES has better sound quality than AVR-4308. As for the AVR-3801, I think it's overpriced for what it has compare to others.

[uofmtiger]

I sampled AVR-4308 and I think the Sony STR-DA5300ES beats it every way but the some of AVR-4308 features I wish was on STR-DA5300ES.

Interesting..I have been looking for something in the price range of the DA5300ES, but only considered the Sony because of the 6 HDMI inputs. The Denon only has 4, but it has an ethernet connection that gives the owner a way to download firmware and Denon can actually troubleshoot problems that way. This is a major selling point for receivers that are just now offering HDMI 1.3... Not to mention that almost all HDMI 1.3 receivers are having issues with "handshaking".

The Onkyo 875 does not have ethernet, either. The upside is a better video chip. I believe they also have a better power supply, but the many reports of extremely hot receivers is worrisome.

Right now I am leaning toward the 3808 because I do not see that the 4308 offers anything extra that I would want. As far as sound quality, I think you would find a lot of people that prefer Denon to Sony...but I have never heard either, so I can't make a judgement either way.

[wakeride74]

I'm really not interested in looking at other brands, I like Denon so I'm sticking with it. I only have a couple questions:

1. Would I hear a significant difference going from the 3801 to the 3808 given the way I have things connected now and the next-gen SQ of the new Denon line?

2. If it is a worth while/money upgrade would I still be able to get TrueHD, DTSHD, uncompressed PCM, etc. using a coax or optical cable from my HD and BD players? (so I could still run my HDMI straight to the TV)

[uofmtiger]

Originally Posted by wakeride74

I'm really not interested in looking at other brands, I like Denon so I'm sticking with it. I only have a couple questions:

1. Would I hear a significant difference going from the 3801 to the 3808 given the way I have things connected now and the next-gen SQ of the new Denon line?

2. If it is a worth while/money upgrade would I still be able to get TrueHD, DTSHD, uncompressed PCM, etc. using a coax or optical cable from my HD and BD players? (so I could still run my HDMI straight to the TV)

I am not sure if you will hear a significant difference. You may just have to buy one from a place with a generous return policy and test it in your system.

2. From what I have read, you need an HDMI or Multichannel Analog Connection to get TrueHD and DTS HD. Running optical will work, but according to the Dolby site, it will downconvert the signal to something the connection
can handle.

I would run component to the TV and use that when you do not want to have the receiver on and then run HDMI to the receiver for movies and other surround sound programming. One of the main advantages to the HDMI 1.3 receivers is the ability to handle the new audio formats, upconvert non-HD video, and HDMI switching.

[wakeride74]

Originally Posted by uofmtiger

I am not sure if you will hear a significant difference. You may just have to buy one from a place with a generous return policy and test it in your system.

2. From what I have read, you need an HDMI or Multichannel Analog Connection to get TrueHD and DTS HD.

That is what is holding me off... I get TrueHD and PCM with my BD player connected via multichannel analog already so I'm asking myself if the decoding and processing of the 3808 via HDMI for TrueHD, DTSHD, etc. will be a step up from running it the way I have it now or if it will be more like going from a Hornet to a PRII

[uofmtiger]

Originally Posted by wakeride74

That is what is holding me off... I get TrueHD and PCM with my BD player connected via multichannel analog already so I'm asking myself if the decoding and processing of the 3808 via HDMI for TrueHD, DTSHD, etc. will be a step up from running it the way I have it now or if it will be more like going from a Hornet to a PRII

I think it is pretty much the same signal either way. For me, it is worth the upgrade to get rid of the tons of cables (especially since I have to use an Outlaw ICBM that adds another 6 cables to the stream).