The NIKON Thread (Talk About Nikon Stuff here)

[Hayduke]

Thanks for the responses folks I'm quoting a couple to respond to directly.

Originally Posted by Towert7

I wouldn't expect phenomenal images straight out of the D80 without the user getting familiar with it, but then again I wouldn't expect many of them to be lousy either.

The first thing you should know is that there are 3 different 'metering' modes on your camera.
Spot meter, center weighted, and matrix.

Matrix metering is Nikon's way of trying to get the best image for the lighting conditions. It's a very tough business, and it does some very complicated algorithms to produce the results it does. Having said that though, there are certain lighting conditions that will throw it off, ESPECIALLY when there are huge variations in lighting.

What you have to understand is that, most non-pro DSLR's have a compressed dynamic range compared to what your typical 35mm film will produce. I wonder if it's even more comrpessed then shooting slides, such as velvia. If you up the contrast, this will become even more so.

So, you need to be mindful of the range of lighting you have in the picture.

Lets say you are taking a picture of a landscape in matrix metering mode. Best thing to do is shoot one test photo and see how the meter is interpreting the picture. Judge then whether it is underexposed, overexposed, or just right for what you want. Then you can adjust what matrix meter mode gives you by A few F-stops in either direction.

The other metering modes are much easier to predict compared to matrix metering.

In spot meter mode, you are metering off what is in the very center of your viewfinder. It will expose it to get the correct lighting for what a 10%(?) grey subject should be. It is VERY easy to predict what the picture will look like using spot metering just by what you point it to and what color it is, etc. This is very similar to the type of meter you'd find in an older camera.

Center weighted metering mode is in between these two. Good for when your main subject is near the center of the image. Some guessing still takes place though I think.

Again, in all three modes you can adjust the Exposure (called Exposure compensation EV).

Don't expect consistent results until you get familiar with the metering modes of your camera, and which to use when. Also, make a habit of taking a test photo in the lighting conditions first and see what it looks like, and then make your exposure corrections from there. That's the great thing about digital, you can take a test photo and instantly see it, and make any adjustments as needed.

Your camera should have come with a link to the nikon website with video tutorials on selected topics. Take a look at those here:
Nikon Imaging | Global Site | Digitutor

Very basic article, you probably already know this:
Nikon, Inc.

Ken rockwell article. Scroll down to exposure:
Nikon D80 Performance

Thanks for all the info. It sounds like I do understand how it works correctly, but there are some subtleties I need to learn to understand. Some of the info in your links are a little remedial, but that's OK. It never hurts to review!

I did find Ken's article about the D80 interesting. I had read his review before buying the camera, but somehow I missed the performance page. He basically says he loves the camera except for the metering. He said it has a tendency to overexpose and recommends stopping down about -.3 to -.7 EV (just like dj suggests below).

Originally Posted by FrederikS|TPU

Completely agree with your recommendations and of course read the manual I found the Nikon manual that is supplied with the D80 to provide a lot of nice insights into what the camera does in the different modes and what you can do with the calibration options.

I did read the entire manual and I even had it with me. I noticed on the first day that I had switched the AF to only use the spot I selected, and I couldn't remember how to change the spot or switch it back to auto-AF. I'll reread the manual again in the next couple weeks. I've only had the camera for 2 weeks as of today, so I read it pretty recently.

Originally Posted by dj_mocok

Hayduke, generally speaking, with D80 if you go under matrix metering and using A mode, it's best to leave the exposure compensation at -.03EV or -.07 EV.

Usually it will give better result. But then again, at times you will have more varied lighting, if that's the case just adjust it accordingly. That's the only thing that I don't really like about D80, the metering can be slightly off . They can call it 'preserving highlights' or whatever excuse, but it's just not as accurate as, say D200 in my opinion. With D200 I hardly got this inconsistency unless it's really expected (bright backlight, dark foreground, etc)

But you'll get used to this very quickly anyway because it's only a few button press once in awhile. But I wonder how you could actually go home with so many incorrectly metered images? You didn't check it from the LCD as soon as you took one picture? I think it's a good habit to check your picture quite often because sometimes we can just do something stupid and keep taking pictures without realising something (eg. accidentally left the camera under M when it's supposed to be A - I did this quite often actually)

About auto ISO, I never turned this feature on. I personally would rather have control over ISO because I don't really want to use higher ISOs unless it's really necessary, and sometimes I'd rather retry the shot again than bumping the ISO. But if you haven't got all the time you can have then maybe auto ISO is better.

Also was there any specific reason why you were shooting at f/22? I think if your lens is pretty wide and you are shooting scenery, won't f/16 (max) is enough to make everything in focus? If it's because you need to slow down the shutter desperately I think it's better to use ND filter than stopping down like that.

Also for high ISO noise reduction, just set this to minimal because with high ISO. your details are sacrificed bad enough already, and you don't want to make it worse.

Thanks so much dj! I think you hit the nail on the head. I was in a rush to get the camera and be ready for the trip. I was concerned about the battery life and wether or not I needed an extra battery. The specs say I get 2700 shots on a charge, and I took 6GB which worked out to ~700 shots. I felt reasonably confident that a single battery would suffice, but to help make sure it did, I turned off photo review to save battery power. In hindsight, that may have been a mistake given how new I was to this camera. I did review some photos manually, but ironically only the ones that looked good. Lesson learned

Many of the photos I was taking were the perfect conditions to cause the camera difficulty. Often, I would be taking landscapes that had bright sunlight and shaded areas in the frame. Sounds like I need to practice these sorts of shots a bit. Luckily I live only 90 miles from The Canyon. I'm already formulating a plan to make another trip in the next couple of months.

In regards to auto-ISO, I turned it off as well. I knew that I preferred 100 film with my old camera, so I saw no need to make the photos grainier. If the shutters got too long, I had my tripod for just that reason. Back in my film days, I do recall that I didn't mind 200 and 400 speed films, so I am considering turning on auto-ISO. Luckily, on the D80, you can limit how high auto ISO will raise the value, so I can just set it to 400.

Why f22? I guess that's my newbness showing. That's the value I used with my film camera when I wanted the whole shot to be in focus. So f16 will do this as well? I wasn't sure what the minimum was (hence the inquiry about intro photo lessons). I'm aware that I don't have a good feel for how shutter, f-stop and ISO interact. I mean I understand how they all work, but I don't know any specific numbers, ie with ISO 100 and f5.6 I need a shutter of 1/200. I also realize these numbers changes based on the available light. I'm going to go out this weekend and experiment to determine a couple of values. I want to get a feel for how large the depth of fields are for my 2 lenses at the different f stops and I need to figure out how slow a shutter I can shoot handheld with the VR lenses.

I also turned off the noise reduction. Basically, that seemed like a post processing sort of thing and would defeat the point of shooting RAW. I want to setup the camera to take the best possible image, but any manipulation after the shutter closes will be done in Lightroom or Photoshop. Any other features on the D80 that are post processing that I should consider turning off? I know there are lots of editing functions, but I'll probably never use them :P

Originally Posted by bigshot

Auto ISO only cuts in if the shutter speed gets too slow to handhold. It really is best to leave it on, especially with the newest generation of Nikons.

Stopping down to the smallest aperture won't get you sharper pictures. The sharpest f stops on most lenses are the ones in the middle.

The higher the ISO, the more need there is for noise reduction. If it becomes a problem, you can shoot raw and turn noise reduction off in the camera- apply noise reduction in post processing to your taste.

See ya
Steve

I use the smaller apertures to increase depth of field. It sounds like I only need to go to f16 to achieve my goal of the entire frame being in focus. So what would be the advantage of the smaller apertures? One of my lenses will go to f29.



Thanks again for everyone's help here. I apologize for all the questions and the long posts (I tend to do that hehe), but I appreciate all the good advice.

[Edwood]

The D80's overexposing is mostly with natural lighting shots, particularly daylight. With a flash, I notice it meters better. Although sometimes it freaks out, and is not nearly as consistent shot to shot compared to the D200.

-Ed

[M0T0XGUY]

Originally Posted by Hayduke

Isn't that the "Auto" setting?

My understanding is that the "Faithful" setting is trying to get the color/exposure to be as close to the original as possible. It seems like it's the more "neutral" setting as opposed to some of the others that may use difference WB or other exposure values.

*shrug* but what do I know? I just got my D80 after letting my AE-1 sit for a decade.

On that note, I just returned from a 6 day backpacking trip in The Canyon with my new D80. I love the camera, but I found that I'm not real good at getting proper exposures. I mostly shoot in aperture priority mode. I thought the point of "A" mode was that it would pick the correct shutter speed to achieve a good exposure. I definitely learned a great deal about using the camera, but I was pretty disappointed about how many were poorly exposed. Am I misunderstanding what the A mode is? I don't recall having this trouble with my AE-1P.

There were some shots that were underexposed, but mostly the problem seems to have been over exposure. Some of them I was able to salvage in Lightroom, but they are probably not suitable for larger prints anymore. Some were beyond repair. I'm guessing it may have been the subject matter. I do know that I've had an over exposure problem with other cameras in The Canyon. I always chalked it up to a crappy camera and expected better from the D80. Any ideas what I did wrong? Maybe I turned off a setting? The only setting I know I messed with was the auto ISO. I realize that this could affect exposure, but I thought it would just mean longer shutter speeds at f22 and above. I actually packed a tripod specifically so I could shoot at f22 and ISO 100.

Can anyone recommend a book or site that has photography instruction? I'm looking for the type of methods used in school? (ie discuss some theory then have an assignment that demonstrates that theory)

Would it help to post links to some of the pictures? I haven't finished going through them all. I took 3 2GB cards and used up about 2.8 of them I think it was ~700 shots. It might take the weekend to get through them all.

Also make sure you didn't mess with the wrong command dial mistakenly. In Aperture Priority mode, turning the front knob will change the aperture value while keeping the "proper" metered exposure in check. Turning the rear knob, however, adjusts Exposure Compensation on top of the metered exposure - and keeps the aperture value fixed.

Of course, the D80 is known for slightly inaccurate metering, and you seem to know what you're doing / how to do it. Still, I've frequently made mistakes like these after simply mixing up shutter speed and aperture command dials.

[bigshot]

Originally Posted by Hayduke

Thanks again for everyone's help here. I apologize for all the questions and the long posts (I tend to do that hehe), but I appreciate all the good advice.

Every lens is a little bit different, but there are two limitations to sharpness related to the f stop you use... wide open, a lot of lenses are soft because of the natural distortion of the lens elements. Stopped all the way down, diffraction can make the image fuzzy. Here's a good general article on lens sharpness.

Hope this helps
Steve

[screwdriver]

you can get a lot of info on the web regarding the basics and stuff of exposure - even if you dont get a book.

if you wanna venture into manual mode - i recommend the dvd in the photoshop cafe titled PERFECT EXPOSURE FOR DIGITAL PHOTOGRAPHY -the zone system of metering and shooting.

[Towert7]

Originally Posted by Hayduke

I did read the entire manual and I even had it with me. I noticed on the first day that I had switched the AF to only use the spot I selected, and I couldn't remember how to change the spot or switch it back to auto-AF. I'll reread the manual again in the next couple weeks. I've only had the camera for 2 weeks as of today, so I read it pretty recently.

The AF mode is different from the Metering Mode. For best results, you want to keep the multipoint AF mode where you select what is in focus, not what the camera 'thinks' should be in focus. The metering mode you choose though is totally up to you.

Yes, F/16 on a DX sensor Usually gives decent results, though it still won't cover something close and something very far. To check though, use your DOF preview button. If massive DOF is critical for odd ball situations, a tilt lens would be advisable.

[fureshi]

Originally Posted by bigshot

Every lens is a little bit different, but there are two limitations to sharpness related to the f stop you use... wide open, a lot of lenses are soft because of the natural distortion of the lens elements. Stopped all the way down, diffraction can make the image fuzzy. Here's a good general article on lens sharpness.

Hope this helps
Steve

there are some good books out there about exposure and how to take exposure readings properly. understanding exposure by bryan peterson is a book that i recently got through and learned a lot from. it's a bit slow at the beginning but he does a good job of covering the basics before he starts throwing techniques at you.

[RYCeT]

Originally Posted by Edwood

Yeah, I'd like keep my take around lenses down to two. Sigma 30mm f/1.4 and one of the Micro-Nikkors. I would probably be shooting mostly product type shots, but occassionally I'd like to be able to shoot really tiny things. Most of the times when I do that, I have access to controlled lighting.

I'm wondering, which one is better for portraits when it comes to just image quality? 60mm one or the 105mm one? (not considering focal length practicality)


-Ed

It's been awhile for me to read this nikon thread, so Ed, have you picked your micro lens yet? Which one? Are you happy with it?
The reason I'm asking, I also looks for a micro lens. I'm considering Nikon 60mm, 105mm, and Tamron 90mm. Currently I'm leaning on Tamron, they have $90 rebate which bring the cost down to around $350. I read their reviews, it give 105mm run for their money and capable to take a good potrait as well which I find important since I loved taking potrait and lust for nikon 85 1.4 but what can I say, at my latest financial condition I can't afford to buy the nikon 85 1.4 yet and I need a macro lens. It seems the tamron 90 is a very good alternative to me.

[Edwood]

Originally Posted by RYCeT

It's been awhile for me to read this nikon thread, so Ed, have you picked your micro lens yet? Which one? Are you happy with it?
The reason I'm asking, I also looks for a micro lens. I'm considering Nikon 60mm, 105mm, and Tamron 90mm. Currently I'm leaning on Tamron, they have $90 rebate which bring the cost down to around $350. I read their reviews, it give 105mm run for their money and capable to take a good potrait as well which I find important since I loved taking potrait and lust for nikon 85 1.4 but what can I say, at my latest financial condition I can't afford to buy the nikon 85 1.4 yet and I need a macro lens. It seems the tamron 90 is a very good alternative to me.

Haven't picked one yet. Had my main LCD monitor start dying on me, so my Macro lens funds were eaten up with a new juicy 22" 1920x1200 monitor.

I'll probably end up with the new 60mm Nikkor Macro with AF-S.

-Ed

[Towert7]

You should seriously consider the 60mm AF-D. It's at a better price. The optics on it are phenomenal.