Gun-Fi

[ast]

Originally Posted by Old Pa

Have you looked at anything from H. S. Precision? They make some very well thought of rifles. I myself am rather enamored of the Remington 700. It's a well developed rifle with excellent accuracy out of the box. There are also a lot of custom and precision components available for the Model 700 and they are fairly straight forward to work on. I assume you know of Brownells in Iowa. I've been very happy with the Leupold LRT scopes; my .308Win wears a 4.5-14x50mm LRT.

My only requirements are .308 calibar and Remington 700 based.

I will check out H.S.Precision.


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I have never owned a rifle before. So my thinking is either buy something cheap like stock 700 Police, get experience then go high-end. Or just save the husstle go straight to the top. I can go either way, I just have no idea what to expect. I want advice and opinions from you.


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[ast]

Originally Posted by Samgotit

Wow. You aren't playing around. Is your optics budget as grandiose?

What's the longest range you shoot?

I've seen lots of praise for these guys as well:
Home - Surgeon Rifles

The only outdoor ranges around have, I believe 100Yard at the most. So that's probably the most I will practice with. But I don't want to be limited by that, 200 or 300 Yard will be my theoretical limit.

Optics wise, I want the absolute the best. Large field of view, easy on the eye, clear and convenient. Leupold or Night Vision are some brand I heard.

[Samgotit]

Originally Posted by ast

The only outdoor ranges around have, I believe 100Yard at the most. So that's probably the most I will practice with. But I don't want to be limited by that, 200 or 300 Yard will be my theoretical limit.

Optics wise, I want the absolute the best. Large field of view, easy on the eye, clear and convenient. Leupold or Night Vision are some brand I heard.

At 300 yards .308 is over kill, but who cares. That's what I use to plink in the same range. Conversely, those rifles would really be a waste at those ranges, though I'd take one if you bought two.

Since your budget is healthy, I don't see a reason not to go as high end on the scope as you like. My choice would be U.S Opitcs for the scope. Just like camera equipment, you can keep your high end glass while you upgraded riles to meet your needs.

Is your objective to put the smallest group of holes in paper possible?

For a "starter rifle" (for many this would be an "ending" rife), I get an accurized 700 LTR for those ranges:
Remington 700 LTR 308 Accurized

Actually, I don't even think you'd need one Accurized, but it's and option.

With Badger Ordnance rings and base:
Badger Ordnance | Premium Firearms Accessories

Your choices are pretty much endless.

[Old Pa]

Originally Posted by ast

My only requirements are .308 calibar and Remington 700 based.

I will check out H.S.Precision.

The H. S. short action takes the same bases as Remington 700 short actions; have your gunsmith increase the mounting screw size by one on the bases. I would recommend the same thing I did; get a Remington 700VS in .308Win, put some good glass in very solid four-screw rings on it, upgrade the trigger to a Timney or similar and go from there. I really like a Vais compensator. The Brownell's catalogue is one hell of a dream book for 1911/AR/Remington. Get a copy soon.

[ast]

Originally Posted by Samgotit

I've seen lots of praise for these guys as well:
Home - Surgeon Rifles

the Surgeon Rifle look very impressive.


Their stock .308 rifle only has 20" barrel and look kinda funny and like a toy. Isn't it a little to short? seems 24" or 26" are more popular, and more accurate????




Can you tell the barrel length of this one from Surgeon's website gallery? the longer barrel Looks much better --- more balanced seems at least 24". if it's .308 I'd buy it.

[Old Pa]

Originally Posted by ast

Their stock .308 rifle only has 20" barrel and look kinda funny and like a toy. Isn't it a little to short? seems 24" or 26" are more popular, and more accurate????

Barrel length does not contribute to accuracy so much as it contributes to velocity and reduction in report and recoil. Accuracy in a barrel is determined by its precision and concentricity from chamber through bore, as well as having appropriate rifling pitch for the projectile. Longer barrels provide more space for the powder charge to be burned and the projectile to be accelerated, resulting in higher velocity. When the projectile exits a longer barrel, even inches further from the shooter, the peak pressure in the barrel is down, there is less powder "air burn" and the report is noticeably less. Recoil and report contribute to shooter fatigue and flinch (shot anticipation).

Furthermore, longer barrels incorporate more steel, which is weight that further resists and reduces recoil. One reason the older turn bolt military rifles are so much fun to shoot is that they have 25 inch or longer tubes, compared with current military rifles 20 inch barrels. I would not have a barrel shorter than 22 inches for a .308Win class cartridge, and most of mine are 26 to 28 inces long (except for the FAL). My .308Win 175 grain MatchKing load has a muzzle velocity of 2840FPS out of my Model 700's (effective) 27.5 inch barrel; that's .300WinMag country, baby! Remember, the two reasons for a precision rifle are to provide precision surgical accuracy and to provide terminal ballistic performance to defeat threats beyond the scope of a handgun or shotgun. Properly loaded, .308Win has decent anti vehicle capability within three hundred yards.

And high velocity is the easiest way to ameliorate range calculation errors, one of the most common reasons for misses in long range shooting.

As an aside, the length of barrel a cartridge will benefit from is dependent on the charge burned; .22LR maxes out between 18 and 20 inches and longer barrels actually provide lower velocities as the projectile's velocity is "sucked back" by the quickly dropping pressure after the propellant is exhausted in the longer barrel. And years ago some match air rifles were designed with short effective barrel lengthes with a longer hollow shroud continuing further to hold the front sight assembly and maintain sight radius. This was becasue with the low velocities of match airgun projectiles and the recoil characteristics of the spring piston match airguns, the shorter barrels provided less "barrel time" for the projectile during which its path could be recoil deflected.

On the other hand, precision rifles to be used in urban environments often have shorter barrels to make them lighter and more manueverable in close confines. It has been my experience that these ostensible qualities of shorter barrels are overrated; if it's close and quick (within 50 yards), give me my 1911 any day. Turn bolt precision rifles are not of that great value "inside the perimeter".

[trains are bad]

.22LR maxes out between 18 and 20 inches

According to the people at rimfirecentral.com, the actual maximum velocity length for 22lr is less than 16 inches, unless you are using high- or hyper-velocity ammo (which is usually not very accurate IME). It's for this reason that I put a 16 inch Green Mountain barrel on my 10/22. Longer barrels have lower velocity, and I can't see the point in that. Apparently even 16 inches is longer than optimal, but our overlords have declared such efficient barrels contraband and refused to bless them with their approval.

[Old Pa]

Originally Posted by trains are bad

According to the people at rimfirecentral.com, the actual maximum velocity length for 22lr is less than 16 inches, unless you are using high- or hyper-velocity ammo (which is usually not very accurate IME).

I've heard this, too, and my oldest 10/22 sports a Clark sixteen inch carbon steel fluted bull barrel (a Butler Creek folding stock and, at present, a Leupold 3.5-10x40mmAO scope) and shoots bugholes with the right fodder. I also suspect the "optimal" barrel length less than sixteen inches may be based upon a collective analysis of .22 CB caps, .22 short, .22 long, and .22LR. I consider all but .22LR obsolescent to my usual purposes (although I keep some Lapua match .22 shorts and some CB caps around for "special purposes"). My statement was based upon my own chronographic tests, and I get higher velocity readings for .22LR standard and high velocity loads from my twenty inch barrels than from my sixteen inch and shorter barrels.

I have had the best .22LR high velocity accuracy luck with Remington high velocity 40gr and CCI MiniMag 40gr. high velocity, but nothing to compare with the accuracy potential of .22LR standard velocity. You can also get into some standard velocity .22LR, like a case of Federal I had to work my way through twenty years ago but still remember, where the ignition is so sporadic as to add velocity variations which obviate good accuaracy. To think that I went Expert in gallery pistol while shooting that stuff.

In any wind or beyond fifty yards on game, the .22LR high velocity comes into its own.

[Samgotit]

Originally Posted by ast

Can you tell the barrel length of this one from Surgeon's website gallery? the longer barrel Looks much better --- more balanced seems at least 24". if it's .308 I'd buy it.

This is the most important quote from that web site:

All Surgeon Rifles come with a .5 MOA or Better Guarantee

That means their rifles will be capable of putting as many bullets as the shooter can fire into 1/2" area @ 100yds. I'm sure all of the rifles you linked are also as capable. But I highly doubt you are a sub .5 MOA shooter. That means that any of those rifle will work for you. Pick the prettiest and send me one, too.

But there are plenty of "off the shelf" rifles that shot better than 1 MOA. The Remington PSS and LTR are two. Why not start with one of these rifles. I'm all for going broke, but why not do it after you learn how to shoot and after you figure out what you want in a rifle?


Old Pa explained barrel length way better than I could, but at a maximum range of 300yds it ain't going to matter much for you.

[ast]

Thanks Old_pa for the very informative explanation.


I will go for longer (>=24") barrel. I know it's way overkill for 100 yard target shooting, but hey aren't we all "gearhead" and overkilling everything already ---- headphones, amps, CD, LP, ....





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