Is elephant leather unethical?

[IceClass]

I think if we're down to dragging child **** and nukes into the argument then we've strayed a long ways from anything to do with conservation and we've created another fallacy.

Just because a species is "protected" does not mean that a take from the population is not feasible or even desirable (as has been pointed out already with respect to park management in the southern range states).

Allowing a small market for elephant products such as leather, hair and yes, even ivory can benefit the human communities who actually have to share their living space with these creatures and whose voice is more often drowned out by the big money western animal protest industry.

[Lazarus Short]

Originally Posted by IceClass

I think if we're down to dragging child **** and nukes into the argument then we've strayed a long ways from anything to do with conservation and we've created another fallacy.

Just because a species is "protected" does not mean that a take from the population is not feasible or even desirable (as has been pointed out already with respect to park management in the southern range states).

Allowing a small market for elephant products such as leather, hair and yes, even ivory can benefit the human communities who actually have to share their living space with these creatures and whose voice is more often drowned out by the big money western animal protest industry.

I agree. The policy of total, absolute protection of wildlife has been a disaster. In the wild, the "balance of nature" is dynamic, and involves the constant birth and death of plants and animals. Man has gone overboard and wiped whole species off the map, but going 180 degrees the other way is not the solution. We humans with our value judgments, see a de-tusked, skinned, abandoned carcass as a waste, but we tend to forget that nature is totally equipped to deal with it. Scavengers need to eat too, it's what they're for. Nothing, after all, goes to waste excepting the very life of the animal.

I was driving north of here yesterday, to go for a hike in a wilderness marsh, and observed several hawks perched in trees along the highway. I guessed they were hungry, and keeping an eye out for possible road kill. Had I had a car load of bunnies, I would have chucked one out the car window for each hawk I saw. No regret.

Laz

[bigshot]

Just FYI... "Elephant leather" wallets are generally cowhide with an elephant skin texture pressed into them.

See ya
Steve

[penguindude]

Originally Posted by Lazarus Short

I agree. The policy of total, absolute protection of wildlife has been a disaster. In the wild, the "balance of nature" is dynamic, and involves the constant birth and death of plants and animals. Man has gone overboard and wiped whole species off the map, but going 180 degrees the other way is not the solution. We humans with our value judgments, see a de-tusked, skinned, abandoned carcass as a waste, but we tend to forget that nature is totally equipped to deal with it. Scavengers need to eat too, it's what they're for. Nothing, after all, goes to waste excepting the very life of the animal.

I was driving north of here yesterday, to go for a hike in a wilderness marsh, and observed several hawks perched in trees along the highway. I guessed they were hungry, and keeping an eye out for possible road kill. Had I had a car load of bunnies, I would have chucked one out the car window for each hawk I saw. No regret.

Laz

Originally Posted by IceClass

I think if we're down to dragging child **** and nukes into the argument then we've strayed a long ways from anything to do with conservation and we've created another fallacy.

Just because a species is "protected" does not mean that a take from the population is not feasible or even desirable (as has been pointed out already with respect to park management in the southern range states).

Allowing a small market for elephant products such as leather, hair and yes, even ivory can benefit the human communities who actually have to share their living space with these creatures and whose voice is more often drowned out by the big money western animal protest industry.

You missed the point of "western aniaml protest industry"; you missed the idea behind the ban on ivory; and you're also misinformed about the ethical issues regarding luxury products such as this "elephant wallet." The point is not whether natives can hunt down and use wild species' parts as their survival needs, such as clothing and food (as originally intended). The point is because of Western countries' overconsumption, we're driving our wants over our needs, and shifting this burden onto animals and wild species.

I do not see any ethical issue regarding natives hunting down animals and fully using their body parts as living necessities, in fact, if they don't, it'd be seen as wasteful. HOWEVER, it is another story when people are hunting down elephants and other species to create luxury products for Western's demands, and in this case, making this elephant wallet and selling it on Ebay.

So yes, I say the idea behind getting a full size genuine leapord jacket with panda-skin matching shoes (or in this case, an elephant-skin wallet) is quite unethical.

[JonnyIce]

I would say if it isn't a farmed animal, then yes, it is unethical--unless in fact you are spearing it on your own in the wild. Natural hunting, with natural weapons.

[Lazarus Short]

Originally Posted by penguindude

You missed the point of "western aniaml protest industry"; you missed the idea behind the ban on ivory; and you're also misinformed about the ethical issues regarding luxury products such as this "elephant wallet." The point is not whether natives can hunt down and use wild species' parts as their survival needs, such as clothing and food (as originally intended). The point is because of Western countries' overconsumption, we're driving our wants over our needs, and shifting this burden onto animals and wild species.

I do not see any ethical issue regarding natives hunting down animals and fully using their body parts as living necessities, in fact, if they don't, it'd be seen as wasteful. HOWEVER, it is another story when people are hunting down elephants and other species to create luxury products for Western's demands, and in this case, making this elephant wallet and selling it on Ebay.

So yes, I say the idea behind getting a full size genuine leapord jacket with panda-skin matching shoes (or in this case, an elephant-skin wallet) is quite unethical.

I can't speak for the other guy you quoted, but I did not miss any of the points you bring up - maybe I just have a different outlook. I take a middle ground between total exploitation and total protection. I advocate both sustainable harvests and preservation of sufficient numbers of a species to preserve an intact gene pool. I am incensed at the killing of bears for their gall bladders, elephants for their ivory, fur seal pups, etc, etc, etc. There is a balance, but it is getting harder to find every year, due to human population increases and pressures for meat and land to farm. Even primitive subsistence hunting can put animals at peril if there are enough hunters.

Some might call the leopard jacket/panda shoes ensemble a red herring, but I get the point. I think what you want to say is that people need to get their heads screwed on straight, and refine their value systems.

PS, this might cheer your heart - in Siberia the current thaw is uncovering lots of Mastodon ivory. It might take some of the pressure off living Elephants.

Laz

[Luminette]

Elephant leather would be as unethical as Cow leather

That the species is endangered adds a brand new layer of violation

I find any use of animal like so to be unethical. Putting our convenience at a price higher than the life of something, anything, is just disgusting.

And that's what this would be.. because.. it is just not necessary.

[bigshot]

Originally Posted by penguindude

I say the idea behind getting a full size genuine leapord jacket with panda-skin matching shoes (or in this case, an elephant-skin wallet) is quite unethical.

But they're OH SO COMFY COZY on a cold Christmas eve! Santa was good to me this year... but I spilled my wassle and I can't get the spot out of the leopard!

See ya
Steve

[IceClass]

[quote=Luminette;3564275

And that's what this would be.. because.. it is just not necessary.[/QUOTE]

*Yawn*
But your headphones are necessary, right?

[Ice Nine]

Anybody interested in my custom made Grados? They have all ivory cups and the headband is genuine elephant leather and not that pressed cow leather stuff.