What is the value of historic recordings?

[Bunnyears]

Originally Posted by PSmith08

Hey, hey.

I like historic recordings as much as the next person, and I am not sure whether or not there will be a Heldentenor like Melchior again, but I think one has to recognize that there are singers of different-but-equivalent quality captured in good sound. James King, for example, was captured in both Siegmund and Parsifal in excellent sound. The Keilberth Ring from the '55 Festspiele is proving, to my satisfaction, at any rate, that the Golden Age really was that shiny.

That having been said, things were not so much better then than they are today. There is a crop of really splendid singers, Domingo, Heppner, among others, who are being captured in really splendid sound. Give me Heppner's life-of-Siegfried best-of over Melchior's recordings any day. The orchestra is better and - like it or not - technology is better.

Actually when it comes to opera, I'd rather watch a dvd with great 5.1 surround sound and a high definition picture! The hidef picture isn't here yet, but the great sound is. An opera is as much about the acting as the music and the theater experience is the best. The opera dvds capture the that so much better than the cds, and there is no getting around that. Unless one is visually challenged, who would want to listen to the screenplay of a movie without the picture? It's much the same with an opera.

[Jahn]

i just keep thinking about some really cruddy Django cuts, and of course the Jazz at Massey Hall recording - off the PA system! Oh, really unbearable in terms of sound quality. But if that meant I would have never had the chance to hear Django rip off a vicious run, or Dizzy spitting "Salt PEEEEAAANUTS!" then give me the nastiest recording instead, please! I remember the first time I heard Massey - it was off a crap Normal bias 60 min cassette my teacher dubbed for me from his really badly scratched vinyl - and I gobbled it up like hotcakes until the tape came off the spindles!

[Bunnyears]

Originally Posted by Jahn

i just keep thinking about some really cruddy Django cuts, and of course the Jazz at Massey Hall recording - off the PA system! Oh, really unbearable in terms of sound quality. But if that meant I would have never had the chance to hear Django rip off a vicious run, or Dizzy spitting "Salt PEEEEAAANUTS!" then give me the nastiest recording instead, please! I remember the first time I heard Massey - it was off a crap Normal bias 60 min cassette my teacher dubbed for me from his really badly scratched vinyl - and I gobbled it up like hotcakes until the tape came off the spindles!

How often to you listen to that recording; do you always listen on headphones or do you prefer to hear it on speakers? Also, is it something you would put on your ipod or mp3 player? Is it something you listen to on occasion or put on every other day?

[bigshot]

Speakers are the best way to listen to music. I only listen on headphones when I'm on the go. My iPod is packed with historical recordings, particularly my jazz and country iPods. I listen to pre-1950 recordings every day. I probably listen to more pre-1965 recordings than post 1965, because there was more music to choose from and the quality of the music was better.

There are great modern recordings, but I'd never trade the rich history of Stokowski and the Philadelphia, Duke Ellington's Cotton Club Orchestra, Bob Wills & his Texas Playboys, Enrico Caruso or the Carter Family for digital sound. Nothing today compares to these great performers. I can't imagine living without having these musical treasures with me. They're the foundation that everything is built upon.

All you have to do is sit down and listen to Walter's 1935 first act of Die Walkure and compare the performances to any other recording. Melchior is better, Lehmann is better, Walter is better, and the pre-war VPO can't be topped. The balances are perfect, and the acting makes the drama come alive. You'll find better sound, but you won't find better Wagner. There's a reason why it's been called the greatest recording of large scale Wagner of all time.

The twentieth century produced a lot of wonderful music. To arbitrarily limit the music you listen to by the way it was recorded is to miss out on some of the greatest performances of all time. High quality sound is great, but it shouldn't be the reason to listen to music. That turns listening into a fetish. The music is what matters.

There's an awful lot of cultural ignorance among young people today. This is due to the severely limited programming on radio and TV today. But all it takes to cure that ignorance is exposure to the right stuff and an open mind. The good stuff is out there. Anyone with an open mind is going to find it.

See ya
Steve

[bigshot]

Originally Posted by Jahn

i just keep thinking about some really cruddy Django cuts

hot tip:

Look for the JSP Django set. It was transferred and restored by John R. T, Davies, who is famous for his top quality work. The problem with Django Reinhart recordings isn't the recordings themselves... it's the quality of the transfers. Davies' set is a revelation if all you have heard is the grainy, over processed transfers on other labels.

See ya
Steve

[bigshot]

Originally Posted by Bunnyears

I know that somewhere there is a great heldentenor waiting in the wings to wow the world, and he will be recorded in sacd multichannel, dvd-a or whatever the best technology the world has to offer when he arrives.

We will likely never see the likes of the opera singers of the early 20th century again, because 19th century opera is no longer a vital part of our culture the way it was then. I don't doubt that great singers exist today. But they probably will be singing something other than Sigmund or the Duke of Mantua.

By the way, Orson Welles said on many occasions that he intended Citizen Kane to be in B&W. He would never have made the film in color. Chaplin said the same of his silent films. Sometimes the technological limitations are part of the art. Certainly, the technological constraints of recording to lacquer disks resulted in an immediacy and presence that is difficult to achieve in our era of multitracking and mixing.

See ya
Steve

[calaf]

I think for once Bunny was guilty of over-simplification, but I know what she means. I could never warm up to some great prewar recordings (Toscanini/Stabile Falstaff or Furtwangler war-time 9th) because the sound is so bad you lose the colours of the orchestra, and you can barely hear the singers. But there is nothing really wrong (aside from a bit of surface noise) with the sound of say Casals Bach Cello Suites, or Schnabel Beethoven cycle. Even symphony orchestras can sound pretty impressive with the right recording: even in 1929 mono sound Stokowski/Philadelphia Rite of Spring sounds incredibly 3D (and incredibly "Stokowski" )

[calaf]

Originally Posted by bigshot

We will likely never see the likes of the opera singers of the early 20th century again, because 19th century opera is no longer a vital part of our culture the way it was then. I don't doubt that great singers exist today. But they probably will be singing something other than Sigmund or the Duke of Mantua.

very good point: today, technique and acting skills seems to be more important than a "beautiful voice". No one can sing like Melchior or Caruso anymore, but for the first time in centuries we can hear a countertenor voice like Andreas Scholl's, or laugh and be moved or horrified by some great characters like Nero, Susanna, and Papageno.

[Bunnyears]

Originally Posted by calaf

very good point: today, technique and acting skills seems to be more important than a "beautiful voice". No one can sing like Melchior or Caruso anymore, but for the first time in centuries we can hear a countertenor voice like Andreas Scholl's, or laugh and be moved or horrified by some great characters like Nero, Susanna, and Papageno.

Sorry, but which tenor had a more beautiful voice than Pavarotti? What great mezzo of the past overshadows Lorraine Hunt Lieberson? Voices are very individual instruments and obviously, unless a singer has an identical twin, no one else will have the same voice. However, just as Caruso or Melchior had great voices others will come along who also have voices that are the equal or even surpass any of the past and we will have far more accurate recordings of exactly what they sound like. It is just as big an error to blindly memorialize the past as it is to discard it.

That said, I will again ask how often anyone actually takes out and listens to recordings made before the era of high fidelity (monophonic), especially orchestral music (with the exception of Bigshot who probably rarely if ever listens to a modern recording)? I am finding that I take out my older recordings less and less frequently because I am finding newer recordings of excellence that rival the older ones, and moreover sound better. I'm not discarding my "antique" collection, but I'm listening to it less. And the antiques (even those on cd) don't make it into the ipod. I just removed all of my Landowska Bach from my ipod because it just wasn't as satisfying from the ipod as it is on speakers. And lately, it's not even as satisfying on speakers as I am more attuned to great HIP recordings and the sound of her Pleyel seems more and more quaint and alien. Landowska played Bach the way Landowska imagined Bach and as amazing and interesting as that is, I'm enjoying the fruits of the scholarly work done on the Baroque period nowadays more.

Edit: Btw, Scholl has a truly great voice, and great countertenors don't pop up that often! In the past they occurred with greater frequency because they used the scissors, a practice that has thankfully been discarded. Also, if you are interested in great countertenors, you should also try to get recordings by René Jacobs.

[Jahn]

Originally Posted by Bunnyears

How often to you listen to that recording; do you always listen on headphones or do you prefer to hear it on speakers? Also, is it something you would put on your ipod or mp3 player? Is it something you listen to on occasion or put on every other day?

Massey warrants its own album on my ipod, and select cuts are on various jazz playlists too, especially Salt Peanuts and Night in Tunisia. Django I admit doesn't have a full library on my ipod, but it does on my computer and i can listen to the whole thing in an evening just flapping about on cans or speakers - and select cuts are on my ipod playlists too - various Jazz ones, some seasonal ones, and acoustic ones, and guitar-only ones...he's pretty much all over the place, hehe.


Bigshot, this is the set i have of Django - Is this the same one you are talking about? Still cruddy sounding but it does let you capture the brilliance of Django - not as amazing as if he was in your face live, but better than John Mayer trying to channel him in SACD at least or something!