European Orchs Run Afoul of Workplace Noise Regs; Told to Turn It DOWN!
The NYT reports that a number of European orchestras have come up against EU workplace noise regulations. In at least one case, a conductor dropped a work from an upcoming concert because it was deemed too loud. In another, a conductor walked off in the middle of a performance becuase his musicians refused to play at the level of fortissimo that he called for.
This issue is bound up in all sorts of thorny questions; is this an example of paternalistic regulation run amok? Or is it the classical community coming to grips with an issue that has long been known, and to some extent addressed, in rock n roll circles?
As a lifelong music lover who suffers from mild tinnitus, I really don't know what I think about this. On one hand, I do not want Big Brother dictating how loud the music I listen to should be.
On the other hand, if I were a string player sitting right in front of the brass section, I would probably welcome a little relief. It seems obvious to me that a lifetime spent in a large orchestra playing large-scale works is likely to cause hearing damage.
When I was playing in front of loud instruments, I wouldn't blame them for playing as loud as they were supposed to (though I would get angry). I would get mad at myself for not bringing earplugs.
my freelance musician friend had a rant at me about this the other weekend. the sentiment amongst musicians is that they have been doing it long enough to know when to bring earplugs. there is a problem perticularly with the freelance musicians because they are held personally accountable for the safety of others around them, which is problematic in itself, what measures does a member of an orchestra take to protect others? at what point does thier music become 'dangerous'? at what point do they become accountable?
its red-tape and beurocracy that is totally out of crontrol and context. next tey will be making the double-bassists wear gloves to protect thier fingers....
...its red-tape and beurocracy that is totally out of crontrol and context. next tey will be making the double-bassists wear gloves to protect thier fingers....
bloody safety in the workplace legislation.
I think you are onto something in raising the issue of context. The Times article brings this up, but doesn't really take the point anywhere. I can certainly understand requiring employers to provide ear protection in, say, a factory with factory-floor noise levels above a certain point. But is an orchestra pit a factory floor...? Are the two even remotely comparable?
I also wonder if this entire issue wouldn't better be resolved by the musicians, conductors, and venues themselves. When I first started going to rock concerts in the mid-70s, typical sound levels were STUNNINGLY loud. A typical show today is still loud, but nothing like what I remember. I think musicians, promoters, et al realized that if they blew out peoples' hearing, they were putting themselves in jeapordy of lawsuits, and they modified their behavior.
There are still some bands that play at obscene levels (Lightning Bolt, Sunn, etc), but at most shows like that you will find ear protection available for free or at nominal cost. Beyond which, most people who go to shows like that know what they are getting themselves into.
Point is, I question whether this is an appropriate area for regulation.
As a semi-professional orchestral player, this is important. Many orchestras now use plexiglass sheets between trumpets and woodwinds, percussion and strings, etc. Helps some. Orchestras with big stages can physically separate players enough that it's not a problem. Also, what causes hearing damage is constant LOUD playing and listening. Most classical music isn't like that. There are periods of relative calm interrupted by moments of overwhelming loudness. I'm in my 50's and have no hearing damage or loss, other than that of a normal aging process. When I play percussion, I almost always use ear plugs, as bass drum and cymbal transients are worrying. The absolute worst thing I ever have to play is the Anvil Chorus from Verdi'r Il Trovatore -- very painful. We always try to move the damnable things as far from everyone else as possible.
So, yes the EU group is wrong in doing this. It lowers great music to the level of Muzak. Rock concerts are much more worrisome.
As a semi-professional orchestral player, this is important. Many orchestras now use plexiglass sheets between trumpets and woodwinds, percussion and strings, etc. Helps some. Orchestras with big stages can physically separate players enough that it's not a problem. Also, what causes hearing damage is constant LOUD playing and listening. Most classical music isn't like that. There are periods of relative calm interrupted by moments of overwhelming loudness. I'm in my 50's and have no hearing damage or loss, other than that of a normal aging process. When I play percussion, I almost always use ear plugs, as bass drum and cymbal transients are worrying. The absolute worst thing I ever have to play is the Anvil Chorus from Verdi'r Il Trovatore -- very painful. We always try to move the damnable things as far from everyone else as possible.
So, yes the EU group is wrong in doing this. It lowers great music to the level of Muzak.
When you do use ear protection, do you find that it affects your hearing such that you have to compensate, or alter your normal response to what you are hearing? In other words, does ear protection change the way that you interpret what you are hearing?
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Originally Posted by mbhaub
Rock concerts are much more worrisome.
Certainly. But there has been a fair amount of self-regulation over the last couple decades, as I mentioned above. You will often see a dB meter taped to the mixing board, and the engineer will often be seen referring to it and making appropriate adjustments in the house level.
Do you think the classical world needs to make similar changes in practise to avoid the kind of paternalistic regulation that we are now seeing in Europe?
Certainly. But there has been a fair amount of self-regulation over the last couple decades, as I mentioned above. You will often see a dB meter taped to the mixing board, and the engineer will often be seen referring to it and making appropriate adjustments in the house level.
I've been to more orchestral concerts than I can count, and never has one of them been comparable in loudness (even at the loudest point) to the average rock show that I've been to. Not to mention, as mbhaub said, that orchestras rarely sustain their maximum volume for long periods of time.
Rock shows, while I don't doubt your assertions of increased self-regulations and a gradual decline in decibel levels, are still unnecessarily loud. I can never understand why the groups want to have their music so loud that the hearing of audience members is adversely affected. Even if I don't wear earplugs, it always ends up sounding like I'm hearing the music through cotton balls because of my body's attempt to protect my ears from the aural assault. The music invariably sounds worse because of the volume. I understand the desire for a tactile impact from the sound, but it goes far beyond that.
I think the reason orchestral climaxes seem so earth-shatteringly loud in context is that the audience has been carefully listening for extended periods of time to music at low to moderate volume levels. When the orchestra really lets loose, it is incredibly loud in contrast. But if you took a measurement of that sound level, I bet it would be far below the base sound level at a rock show, to which the audience is subjected for multiple hours without a break.
-Jay
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If you have more invested on equipment than music, you're missing the point.
I've been to more orchestral concerts than I can count, and never has one of them been comparable in loudness (even at the loudest point) to the average rock show that I've been to. Not to mention, as mbhaub said, that orchestras rarely sustain their maximum volume for long periods of time.
Oh, no question. Rock shows are still very loud in many, if not most, cases.
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Originally Posted by JayG
Rock shows, while I don't doubt your assertions of increased self-regulations and a gradual decline in decibel levels, are still unnecessarily loud. I can never understand why the groups want to have their music so loud that the hearing of audience members is adversely affected.
This, for better or worse, is part of the culture of rock music. The music is meant to be felt, as much as heard. Probably the loudest show I've ever been to (without walking out) was a Husker Du club date in the mid-80s. It was a very small place, and the crowd consisted almost entirely of true believers -- people who really loved the band. So people were pressed up against the front of the stage. When the band launched into the first song, nearly everyone backed up, in an almost involuntary way. I don't know how to describe it, except to say that the sheer volume gave the sound an almost solid presence.
Today, I would never go to a show like that without ear protection. But I might let myself have a few minutes of unprotected listening, despite the probable damage, just to revel in that sheer force. It takes me back to my teens, when I would play Black Sabbath's Paranoid so loud that I couldn't hear my mother frantically pounding on my bedroom door.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayG
The music invariably sounds worse because of the volume. I understand the desire for a tactile impact from the sound, but it goes far beyond that.
That kind of excess is sometimes the point!
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayG
I think the reason orchestral climaxes seem so earth-shatteringly loud in context is that the audience has been carefully listening for extended periods of time to music at low to moderate volume levels. When the orchestra really lets loose, it is incredibly loud in contrast.
Dynamics are certainly a much more important part of classical music and jazz than of rock. In the Times article refrerenced in my OP, someone comments on a conductor who has many different gradations of fortissimo; so even when playing loudly, classical musicians have a nuanced sense of dynamics.
i have never gotten the ringing of the ears from a classical performance.
if the musicians are concerned about their ears, they can acquire ear protection.
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Originally Posted by mkmelt
ACHTUNG - ALLES KOPFPHONERLISTENERS
Alles kopfphonerlisteners non-technischens! Das tubenmachine is nicht for gefengerpoken und mittengrabben. Oderwise is easy schnappen der springenverk, blowenfus, und poppencap, mit spitzensparken, und smokentubes. Geverken inside der tubenmachine is fur der experten only. Is nicht fur geverken inside by das dumpkopfen. Das rubbernecken amateuren keepen das cotton-picken hands in das pockets. Just relaxen, enjoyen der musik, und vatchen das pretty glowentubes.
European Orchs Run Afoul of Workplace Noise Regs; Told to Turn It DOWN!
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