High-end non-upsampling DACs

[rincewind]

Well I tried to let it lie, but:

1) Regardless of what the test shows Regal: You should be listening to music, not to tones. This 'skewing' is a well known part of NOS DACs. The best ones do it a negligible amount. Anyway, a DAC could measure the worst on earth and use a single capsicum as its DAC chip, as long as it sounds like the best thing I've ever heard, these are irrelevant to me.... as long as I can buy replacement capsicums BTW, a lightly modified DAC-AH is only just the tip of the iceberg WRT NOS DACs. A lightly modified Zhaolu would be equivalent in the OS world, and we all know they aren't overly special either in the grand scheme of things, so don't make generalisations based on that.

2) That quote from the 'ultimate nos dac' thread at diyaudio was taken way out of context. I got a reply from the guy who posted it cos I asked him about the thread, and he rattled off about 5-6 points of weakness each for OS and NOS DACs. The NOS points he explained were largely irrelevant in listening applications of DACs. And while the OS 'problems' are TECHNICALLY only of the same (sometimes even lesser) seriousness as the NOS problems when used in other applications, they are directly related to listening uses, and cannot be corrected by filtering or otherwise.

Let's let this thread go back to NOS recommendations for the OP.

[J-Pak]

Originally Posted by rincewind

Well I tried to let it lie, but:

1) Regardless of what the test shows Regal: You should be listening to music, not to tones. This 'skewing' is a well known part of NOS DACs. The best ones do it a negligible amount. Anyway, a DAC could measure the worst on earth and use a single capsicum as its DAC chip, as long as it sounds like the best thing I've ever heard, these are irrelevant to me.... as long as I can buy replacement capsicums BTW, a lightly modified DAC-AH is only just the tip of the iceberg WRT NOS DACs. A lightly modified Zhaolu would be equivalent in the OS world, and we all know they aren't overly special either in the grand scheme of things, so don't make generalisations based on that.

2) That quote from the 'ultimate nos dac' thread at diyaudio was taken way out of context. I got a reply from the guy who posted it cos I asked him about the thread, and he rattled off about 5-6 points of weakness each for OS and NOS DACs. The NOS points he explained were largely irrelevant in listening applications of DACs. And while the OS 'problems' are TECHNICALLY only of the same (sometimes even lesser) seriousness as the NOS problems when used in other applications, they are directly related to listening uses, and cannot be corrected by filtering or otherwise.

Let's let this thread go back to NOS recommendations for the OP.

In my opinion high frequency extension is pretty important for any hifi source (at least it is with my priorities).

[rincewind]

Well, if you say you listen with your ears, but still let tests and IC specifications make decisions for you (ie you consider them at all), then stay with OS - they are MUCH MUCH better ON PAPER.

J-Pak, the bass on my NOS DACs went deeper and clearer than any OS DAC I've heard (barring the Theta) and the treble is more sweet, clear and airy than anything else I've heard. I think you've had the Benchmark and other stuff and weren't quite happy with it. You should try a good quality NOS DAC - a DAC-AH with the minor imperfections corrected is VERY cheap, can't hurt to try for yourself. They make my headphone and speaker systems sing like nothing else. Or ask Jahn about his DAC-AH - Why on earth would someone whose heard so much gear (the ever changing tower of power) 'settle' on something if it's apparently so bad? A NOS DAC was one of the few purchases I've made that 'fly in the face' of common known 'fact' as far as specifications and such go, and it was the BEST purchase I've ever made - audio or otherwise.

[Thelonious Monk]

it took me forever to figure out NOS meant non-oversampling in context to this thread, and not new old stock...

[fierce_freak]

Haha, I always think of NOS as non-oversampling...makes for a funny read sometime when you see NOS tubes.

[J-Pak]

Originally Posted by rincewind

Well, if you say you listen with your ears, but still let tests and IC specifications make decisions for you (ie you consider them at all), then stay with OS - they are MUCH MUCH better ON PAPER.

J-Pak, the bass on my NOS DACs went deeper and clearer than any OS DAC I've heard (barring the Theta) and the treble is more sweet, clear and airy than anything else I've heard. I think you've had the Benchmark and other stuff and weren't quite happy with it. You should try a good quality NOS DAC - a DAC-AH with the minor imperfections corrected is VERY cheap, can't hurt to try for yourself. They make my headphone and speaker systems sing like nothing else. Or ask Jahn about his DAC-AH - Why on earth would someone whose heard so much gear (the ever changing tower of power) 'settle' on something if it's apparently so bad? A NOS DAC was one of the few purchases I've made that 'fly in the face' of common known 'fact' as far as specifications and such go, and it was the BEST purchase I've ever made - audio or otherwise.

rincewind believe me I'm the last person looking at white paper specs, I probably couldn't decipher even half of what's given to me, I'm definitely using my ears

You're right I did have the DAC1 in my system and I was incredibly disappointed by its performance. However I also owned a Bel Canto DAC2 that I was pleased with, but it did suffer from "hardness" that might be a stereotypical characteristic of U/S DACs. I also heard a modded DAC-AH (I can't recall exactly what they were, but they were very simple according to the owner) and I was definitely not thrilled with its performance compared to the DAC2. On classical and jazz pieces the DAC-AH did lack the high frequency sweetness, air and depth to the notes. On sitar from the high upper midrange/lower treble upwards the instrument sounded dull, muted and recessed, definitely not how it sounds in real life (I did do side by side comparisons, but this was something that was incredibly obvious). I then set out looking for a sort of middle ground between the two. I finally settled on the Lavry DA10, and so far it's just gelled really well in my system. If you look at my two "reference" headphones they're definitely more analytical and very revealing of upstream gear, as such I've sort been on the perfect <digital> source quest for a while now. I don't think I fall into the typical "Lavry or the Benchmarks or most of what noobs on here refer to as top notch" that you referred to earlier.

I did a lot of research at a few other hifi forums and from everything I've read the new U/S DAC I have coming to me should have a truly "analog" signature (granted it's not cheap) with excellent extension on both ends. I should have a detailed write up in two to three weeks time.

[rincewind]

Cool J-Pak, there's just many who don't. Hrmm, sounds typical of very lightly modified DAC-AH. You need to have certain mods for it stand out from the others you compared to, as they are relatively good quality DACs (stiffer competition than say a stock Zhaolu etc). When money permits and if you still have the inclination, have a look for a high quality NOS maker with a money back garantee so u can compare apples and apples

[Killercrush]

Originally Posted by rincewind

compare apples and apples

I would say green apples and red apples ! lol

I'm really interested in a NOS dac but I can't find a way to listen them for cheap...

[rincewind]

Suggest you try this: Pacific Valve Lite DAC AH and have it modified by a reputable modification company. That should give you a good approximation of just what is possible with NOS. They can do mods according to any budget you name. They will twiddle with it somewhat anyway, but make sure they make the outputs passive and set the chip voltages to 8V instead of the standard 6V.

[rincewind]

Could look at the Ongaku (sp?) DAC here. The link is stuffed though, it goes to a Preamp http://www.sibatech.co.jp/KONDO/KONDOindex.htm

Depending how many features you need/want, the Progression DAC on this page: http://www.sakurasystems.com/products/47dac.html It is minimal in 'features' but some say that's good.

Man.. no wonder you posted on here asking, I haven't found (m)any NOS DACs over $1000. I found the Opera Audio Consonance CDP though, looks quite nice. Anyway, I only found the above, and several of the DIY home jobbies, like the Altmann or the DDDAC which although they may sound good, I wouldn't call "high-end" cos I'd say that includes appearance and not having a car battery in your lounge to run the DAC! There is always the many sites that will mod up a DAC-AH but I guess you don't wanna do that.

There's also the AudioNote gear which I think you can get the top model for about 2300USD. All tube based (never again for me).

If you can wait 2-3 weeks, Storm Audio's releasing its D02A. I don't know the price (cos mine is pretty much a replacement job for a previous faulty one), but I know it's got a LOT more features than the model I got for kinda cheap, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's a fair bit more.