Goldmund V.S. Pioneer !!??

[nsgarch]

For what it's worth guys, Goldmund's response: GOLDMUND - Newsletter - January 2008

and some info on the mechanism upgrades: Welcome to the Martin Logan Club! - View Single Post - High End ($$$$) CD/SACD Players

[arnaud]

haha,

They actually are going full bluff here! I surely hope there are a few sub 12k contenders to this $200 DVD player!

Originally Posted by nsgarch

For what it's worth guys, Goldmund's response: GOLDMUND - Newsletter - January 2008

The pictures here show that not only the transport but the whole D/A and output stage is the Pioneer card. I am not EE major, but it does not take a genius to identify that the board used to convert the signal and buffer is basically a variant of Pioneer board in the original player. There's no magic bullet here, the output RCAs are wired to that board, not to a 5k one hidden underneath. Else, we've been looking at mock up pics all along...

With that kind of obnoxious response, they achieve three things in my book:

> Confirm they have no remorse whatsoever about rebadging the Pioneer

> Trust that the rich fools who convinced themselves this player sounds like a 12k unit will keep their BLIND faith in the bling bling factor

> Set themselves up for even more bad publicity until they admit it's not only drive they've been using from Pioneer but pretty much the whole circuitry! At least in one of their original designs...

But yeah, I guess they have no much other choice than bluffing because admitting anything else will hurt the business more anyhow...

[powerslave]

Interesting article posted by someone here could have some relevance in the world of audio:

Study: $90 wine tastes better than the same wine at $10 | Underexposed - CNET News.com

[Kees]

Has anybody confirmed that the Pioneer and the Golmund player actually sound identical?

[infinitesymphony]

I'd like see a sonic shootout of the Goldmund player, a cheap Pioneer player with mostly the same parts, and another cheap Pioneer player modded with $11,900 of parts (or $10,000 worth of parts, and a custom-designed enclosure).

I like their comment about the player:

Originally Posted by Goldmund

"It's built-in 2-ch and 6-ch D/A converters may be used for practicality, but the Eidos 20 best performance is achieved when playing CD’s through the digital Audio Output, available both on SPDIF and Toslink."

Hmm, wonder why...

Is it any coincidence that they don't publish the players' specifications?

Their latest newsletter states that they have been revealing exactly which Pioneer models they have used and modified... Can anyone link to a page with that information?

Originally Posted by Kees

Has anybody confirmed that the Pioneer and the Golmund player actually sound identical?

Just use Goldmund's philosophy and don't worry about it:

Originally Posted by Goldmund

"We, at Goldmund, absolutely never listen to our components before releasing them to the market. But we have a pretty good idea on how they will sound, because we do measure them…"

[clarke68]

Originally Posted by Goldmund, via infinitesymphony

"We, at Goldmund, absolutely never listen to our components before releasing them to the market."

Oh, that is priceless. We oughtta make them some t-shirts with that slogan and hand 'em out at audio shows.

[infinitesymphony]

Originally Posted by clarke68

Oh, that is priceless. We oughtta make them some t-shirts with that slogan and hand 'em out at audio shows.

Here are a few more for consideration:

Originally Posted by Goldmund website, Technology section

"...we literally wrap the delicate analog signal in a digital envelop which is used to suffer the process and the transport without damaging the analog content inside."

"We only use the evil digital domain for what it is good at..."

"In brief we do not love digital, we rather enslave it to better protect your delicate analog signals where life for them is difficult..."

[oicdn]

So this is a DV-380x (380K or 380S) So will models above the 380 series be SUPERIOR to this unit? I can't seem to find this unit anywhere except online retailers...

[Herandu]

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony

Here are a few more for consideration:

What they are saying is that they give the Pioneer a new casing.

[arnaud]

Originally Posted by Kees

Has anybody confirmed that the Pioneer and the Golmund player actually sound identical?

I am not sure Goldmund show rooms have disposable type DVD players like the Pioneer as benchmark against their gear. Actually, I would guess it's 100% Goldmund in there but there's no better than you when you're the ONLY one, isn't it!!

Now, for the Goldmund market (that is the VERY wealthy), I seriously doubt many bother reading online forums in their purchasing decisions. Or maybe Goldmund will give them a Pioneer for free with every purchase so they can be reassured? I like that idea!

I am sure though that what they put on the market sounds at least slightly better due to recabling, better plugs, better transformers and also maybe some mechanical isolation of the drive from the chassis. The chassis itself is much heavier and thus less prone to transmitting vibration through to the various electronics.

Personally, it's not so much about the sound of the unit but more about the whole attitude. I mean, they are taking the customer for a ride, no matter how we look at it. Rebadging and reselling for over 100x markup (they likely get the DVD units from Pioneer for half retail or less) is no less than that unless you actually say it officially (that drive/associated electronic, DAC, output boards and the display/commands are all common to a Pioneer unit). Granted, the case is beautiful and likely expensive to make in Switzerland, but not 10 grands expensive (else really really goldmund stuff has gold in it, truly).

Arnaud.

[markl]

While if what my eyes tell me is true, that these players are very close to being largely the same (the digital boards are NOT identical, but close enough and probably from a different Pioneer model), it's clearly an incredibly disappointing thing to see.

OTOH, what some folks don't seem to acknowledge is that there are but a hand full of makers of CD transports in the world, and only a few that make "high-end" models. Unless you are buying an Esoteric, no strictly high-end boutique manufacturer of any CD player is making their own transport from scratch. They are all sourced from Far Eastern companies. Some (apparently including the Goldmund in question) at least tweak these transports to improve upon them. Still, the ability to actually make them is well beyond the scope of 10-man operations that are most boutique labels, so they are outsourced. Same thing with building remotes. Since the remote works the transport and display you're already OEM-ing, why not just re-badge the existing remote that goes with the off-the-shelf transport? And besides, what would a "high-end" remote do that a cheap one doesn't?

We all also know that none of these boutique brands are manufacturing their own DAC chipsets, they too are also sourced from a small group of manufacturers. Of course, not all of them are just transplanting the entire digital board lock stock and barrel from another player , but they are still going to be constrained in the number of unique and different ways they can implement any chipset.

So that leaves the power supply and the analog output section for the boutique builders to really distinguish themselves. Goldmund added a toroid to the power supply, but seems to have done nothing to analog output.

Knowing all this, what we see may not be quite as shocking in the end as it seems at first (well, until we see the sticker price of $12K ). One would certainly expect some very nice analog output section, especially at that price.

All that said, the things that nag at me from some posts in this thread from the usual anti-audiophile suspects is that they seem to be complaining that the transport is largely the same in both players. Yet, in general, these types are also the very same people who will insist that all transports are the same. So why would they care or be outraged at the inclusion of cheap transport vs. an expensive one? The sound will be the same, and the buyer is no more ripped off for buying a unit with a cheap vs. expensive transport.

These same folks also tend to argue that better quality components also make no difference, and yet still complain that they are not present in the Goldmund.

I find these contradictions amusing and revealing.

[wower]

Thank you markl for that post. I find myself agreeing with almost everything you said.

I think what I've learned of from this thread is that Goldmund is most likely pursuing a business model of pulling one over on rich audiophiles; it's as much about exclusivity as performance. It has certainly worked in other high-end industries. I'll set aside playing devil's advocate and admit I can't stand it when people state, "Look at the pictures; this is how it sounds." The logic of that is wrong on so many levels I won't bother getting into again - an especially egregious example is on display in this thread. I'm certainly not talking about subjective judgments about the perceived value of gear. That's what most of head-fi is! And it can be helpful. And it's fun! But some, without ever hearing the gear, get down right totalitarian when someone points out reality; that we don't know the details, that we haven't heard it, that these are anonymous posts, that you can't infer to the nth degree from these pictures, etc. I guess I'm just conservative. Still, lots of mature posters on this thread with good insights and for that you have my appreciation.

[howiebrou]

Originally Posted by markl

Unless you are buying an Esoteric, no strictly high-end boutique manufacturer of any CD player is making their own transport from scratch. They are all sourced from Far Eastern companies.

I agree with what you said but would like to add that Accuphase does make their own transports now

[infinitesymphony]

For those curious about the exact Pioneer model, it appears to be the European DV-585A. Pictures:

Pioneer DV-585A
Goldmund Eidos

Originally Posted by Herandu

What they are saying is that they give the Pioneer a new casing.

Yeah, leave the job of listening up to whomever buys their products.

I loved this quote, too: "And do not forget that, using research sub-contracting, we can afford the best guys, because we pay them only when they work for us!"

Translation: We pay other companies to do all of our work.

Originally Posted by markl

OTOH, what some folks don't seem to acknowledge is that there are but a hand full of makers of CD transports in the world, and only a few that make "high-end" models. Unless you are buying an Esoteric, no strictly high-end boutique manufacturer of any CD player is making their own transport from scratch.

I don't think that anyone expects a company to make their own transport when there are good ones available... Pioneer's transports have been proven to be very good modification platforms, and they have been extremely reliable in my experience. Likewise with DACs; it would be wasteful to try to build a DAC from scratch when other companies already have great DAC chips available at fair prices.

But it's a slippery slope. Sooner or later, I guess the marketing department of a company needs to ask itself, "What do we need to make ourselves?" It seems that most decide to design the circuit board schematic, spec out parts, build the case, and design/implement a remote. Goldmund only does one of the four and charges much more than a mainstream manufacturer for their efforts.

[memepool]

Originally Posted by wower

Thank you markl for that post. I find myself agreeing with almost everything you said.

I think what I've learned of from this thread is that Goldmund is most likely pursuing a business model of pulling one over on rich audiophiles; on this thread with good insights and for that you have my appreciation.

You are kind of missing the point of what he's said though. I'm sure I've said this twice already but the fact is that almost nobody makes a bespoke High end CD transport.

Teac is about the only one that immediately springs to mind. Philips stopped making their CDM-Pro some time ago and Shanling bought up all the remaining supplies.

The computer industry leads optical disc technology these days. The audiophile market is a tiny one in comparison so more or less EVERY cd / dvd player you buy has a mechanism that wasn't designed primarily for music playback.

Sure you can tweak the firmware, redesign the clamp etc etc but the bottom line is that this is a very difficult piece of technology to build and just not cost effective even if like Linn's CD12 you charge an arm and a leg for it.

Pioneer have 30+ years of experience going back to laser disc technology and you'll find their mechanisms in everything form high end CD / DVD players to Apple Mac's Superdrive.

Pioneer technology is not "cheap" per se it's the result of a huge company with a liftime's R&D invested in this area and some of the best and brightest engineers in Japan. It's probably manufactured and assembled in Shenzen by some poor Chinese guy who earns a few cents a day like most of the worlds CE products.

This is why it's "cheap" technology, because of globalised economics.

Goldmund is a different type of company altogether, it's a small Swiss bespoke engineering firm which makes some of the best turntables (lots of)money can buy. In economic terms it's reputation is "guilt edged" meaning that like Aston Martin or Bentley it's brand is almost beyond question.

In fact I am more surprised that Goldmund would dilute their brand with an entry level product like this. Yes 6000 USD is not cheap I know but that has more to do with the global weakness of the Dollar than anything else...

How many European audiophile brands can you think of which offer any kind of DVD multiplayer for much less?

Originally Posted by rodentmacbeastie

This is the main reason why I am going DIY! Speaker manufacturers are bad too! They fill a box full of drivers worth $100 to $200 and build them into a nicely finished box and sell them for $2000 $200000!
.

DIY is all well and good and the way most traditional Hi-Fi companies started out, making stuff in a hand built artisan fashion on a very small scale. Naim, Arcam, Marantz etc etc...

This is all well and good for simple analogue technologies like amps, speakers and turntables but since Sony and Philips came out with CD the cottage industry companies have had to move beyond a specialist engineering model if they want to survive.

All they now really do is choose and apply the best technologies and tailor their sound to appeal to finer tastes which is exactly what Goldmund are saying.

I wish you luck with your first DIY DVD transport!