Goldmund V.S. Pioneer !!??

[infinitesymphony]

Originally Posted by spritzer

For those that don't know Goldmund well then they made their mark in the turntable world and now are shipping a TT that costs something like 350k$. There is a A/D converter in the arm so all the RIAA conversion takes place in the digital domain. I'm starting to wonder just how innovative it really is...

Well... Someone around here coded a free little software RIAA equalizer, so I imagine it's not extremely difficult. Just a matter of applying the curve.

I imagine it would be very easy for a chip manufacturer to make something that applied the curve, and they would probably sell the technology for significantly less than $350K.

[spritzer]

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony

Well... Someone around here coded a free little software RIAA equalizer, so I imagine it's not extremely difficult. Just a matter of applying the curve.

I imagine it would be very easy for a chip manufacturer to make something that applied the curve, and they would probably sell the technology for significantly less than $350K.

It looks well built to so it might be worth some 100k at most. Here is a link. This is the former reference. Specs

[clarke68]

I don't want to waste too much breath defending Goldmund in this case, but I bet if you actually parted it out:

- Pioneer parts in relatively small quantities (compared to the mass-market)
- That toroid & other PS parts
- The enclosure, plus tooling fees for putting holes in the face & rear
- Whatever else

...then add a typical 5x manufacturing multiplier, pay the dealers, shipping, warehousing, etc...you'd probably arrive at a price not too far off the $6000 they charge.

They certainly aren't offering much value, but I (honestly!) don't think they're ripping people off. Of course, the real question for me is, "does the Goldmund offer $5800 worth of sonic joy over the Pioneer?" and I can answer that one even without a double-blind listening test.

[spyder187]

Originally Posted by clarke68

...then add a typical 5x manufacturing multiplier, pay the dealers, shipping, warehousing, etc...you'd probably arrive at a price not too far off the $6000 they charge.

They charge 6000 pounds so ~$12000. Maybe it has diamonds in it or something.

[wower]

Goldmund has stated they consider themselves more of a research company than a consumer electronics company. Some of the price of this unit must be going to subsidizing there top-teir units. Plus this debate is kind of abstract without an exact list of parts for each, still, I found myself reading all the pages.

[memepool]

Don't see the big deal here at all? or doesn't anyone realise that almost all all "audiophile" type CD and DVD players use far eastern derived ROM transports and chip assemblies of one sort or another?
What makes them sound better is how all this stuff is combined and implmented. Thats what you are paying for....

[Leporello]

Originally Posted by wower

Goldmund has stated they consider themselves more of a research company than a consumer electronics company.

This is called marketing. Nothing wrong with that, most other consumer electronic companies do that, too.


Regards,

L.

[Herandu]

Originally Posted by memepool

Don't see the big deal here at all? or doesn't anyone realise that almost all all "audiophile" type CD and DVD players use far eastern derived ROM transports and chip assemblies of one sort or another?
What makes them sound better is how all this stuff is combined and implmented. Thats what you are paying for....

This reminds me of the 6.7 litre engine in the pre-BMW Rolls Royce. Or the reworked Ariston turntables or Audio Technica parts carrying a famous Scottish brand name.

[hciman77]

Originally Posted by memepool

Don't see the big deal here at all? or doesn't anyone realise that almost all all "audiophile" type CD and DVD players use far eastern derived ROM transports and chip assemblies of one sort or another?

I dont have a problem with manufacturers using very reliable and data perfect CD-ROM or DVD-ROM drives, I am sure that is what is inside my $60 DVD player and it works jolly well, but then I didnt pay $12,000 for it.

Originally Posted by memepool

What makes them sound better

But does it (The Goldmund) really sound better than the Pioneer which spawned it, I would really like to see some non-sighted ABX tests here for sure.

Originally Posted by memepool

.....is how all this stuff is combined and implmented.

Looks like a few lengths of ribbon cable and some jumper leads to me, grand cost maybe $5.00

Originally Posted by memepool

Thats what you are paying for....

Ah, well there is the rub. If you didnt know who made it and how much it cost and someone asked you how much you would pay for it what would you say ?

[clarke68]

Originally Posted by spyder187

They charge 6000 pounds so ~$12000.

Ouch..didn't catch that. Yeah, they're ripping people off.

Originally Posted by wower

Goldmund has stated they consider themselves more of a research company than a consumer electronics company.

That would be fine if I could write off the cost of one of their players as a donation to science, but somehow I don't think that would fly.

Originally Posted by memepool

Don't see the big deal here at all? or doesn't anyone realise that almost all all "audiophile" type CD and DVD players use far eastern derived ROM transports and chip assemblies of one sort or another?

I don't think that anyone has an issue with Goldmund sourcing parts from another manufacturer, the problem is the markup.

Sheesh...how much would they have to charge if they actually developed & manufactured that transport themselves?

Originally Posted by memepool

What makes them sound better

Objection, your honor...speculation.

[OverlordXenu]

Originally Posted by memepool

Don't see the big deal here at all? or doesn't anyone realise that almost all all "audiophile" type CD and DVD players use far eastern derived ROM transports and chip assemblies of one sort or another?
What makes them sound better is how all this stuff is combined and implmented. Thats what you are paying for....

They aren't just using the drive...This $12,000 player is just a recased $200 DVD player. It added a torid and some wire, and dressed it up pretty.

[wower]

Originally Posted by Leporello

This is called marketing. Nothing wrong with that, most other consumer electronic companies do that, too.

Originally Posted by clarke68

That would be fine if I could write off the cost of one of their players as a donation to science, but somehow I don't think that would fly.

The bigger picture is working its way into the thread. I kind of want to push my point further but I don't want to seem pushy. It's just an interesting subject so I'll add my thoughts while respecting these points-of-view. Both quotes take a rather cynical view of, well, economics. If they weren't producing anything of value they would cease to exist in the marketplace. Some innovation is taking place but I don't know the company well enough to state emphatically that their strategy is ripping people off on their lower models, if we take the analysis of these photos in this thread as fact, to subsidize their high-end range.

[clarke68]

Originally Posted by wower

The bigger picture is working its way into the thread. I kind of want to push my point further but I don't want to seem pushy.

Feel free to push harder...I'm not sure I'm getting your point. Don't worry, we can take it.

Originally Posted by wower

It's just an interesting subject so I'll add my thoughts while respecting these points-of-view. Both quotes take a rather cynical view of, well, economics.

It is an interesting subject. I admit, my reaction is cynical, however I think cynicism is one of the healthier possible reactions to something like this.

Originally Posted by wower

If they weren't producing anything of value they would cease to exist in the marketplace.

That's a bit naive. Some companies exist on the "value" of their brand alone. Look at Coke & Pepsi. Neither is going away in my lifetime, but which is producing caramel-colored sugar water of such value that the world would dramatically change if their product were to disappear?

You really should read this article: Money and the High End - The Price is the Product, written by Brian Cheney, who makes highly regarded $20,000+ speakers. It presents a different perspective on "producing anything of value" than you're probably familiar with.

Obviously, there are enough people around convinced of Goldmund's value to keep the company afloat. Like any smart business unit, they charge what the market will bear. That the market will bear quite a bit in their case isn't necessarily because the folks at Goldmund are thieves (although charlatans may be accurate).

Originally Posted by wower

their strategy is ripping people off on their lower models, if we take the analysis of these photos in this thread as fact, to subsidize their high-end range.

Considering the prices of their high-end range, I'd say they subsidize themselves just fine.

[infinitesymphony]

It just seems like bad business... Do you think that they would charge $12,000 for a completely stock Pioneer DVD player, totally unmodified? The only difference between an unmodified player and the Goldmund are a few parts and the case, which is by far the most expensive part.

Is it any coincidence that the only high-end part is obscuring from view all of the mediocre parts? If so, then I'll sell you a Pontiac Fiero with a Ferrari F335 body kit for $100,000 to "subsidize" my purchase of a real F335.

[wower]

There's nothing to really push. I just wanted to point out, without eliciting a flame war (obviously you're mature enough not to freak out), that their might be a larger economic picture in regards to Goldmund. If you don't buy into my "market forces" argument, something I always considered pretty well established, I'll still be in Japan drinking my tea.

In regards to the link: That article did nothing to inspire my confident in the hi-fi industry. However, it was mostly anecdotal, and much like this thread, it left me wanting more hard facts.

In regards to cynicism: that's a debate reserved for when I have a beer infront of me! I'll buy the first round!