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The bashing of the Technics tonearm is highly overdone. The 1200 has a fine tone arm that can be made great for far less than a replacement. I just rewired my 1210 with Cardas cable from head shell to RCA's (which I installed) for $65. This plus a fluid dampener from KABUSA.com ($150) and you have a table that easily competes with a Rega or Project at 2-4 times the price. I have owned a Rega p3 with R300 tonearm. I would rank the Technics tonearm once modded to be equal to the Rega.
OK I have my flame retardant underwear on so Rega tone arm lovers FLAME ON.
The bashing of the Technics tonearm is highly overdone. The 1200 has a fine tone arm that can be made great for far less than a replacement. I just rewired my 1210 with Cardas cable from head shell to RCA's (which I installed) for $65. This plus a fluid dampener from KABUSA.com ($150) and you have a table that easily competes with a Rega or Project at 2-4 times the price. I have owned a Rega p3 with R300 tonearm. I would rank the Technics tonearm once modded to be equal to the Rega.
OK I have my flame retardant underwear on so Rega tone arm lovers FLAME ON.
The reviewer on audiogon did have good things to say about the stock tonearm. I think it is premature for me to consider upgrading without hearing how it sounds as is. I do like to tinker, so maybe I'll do a series of small mods and try a rega tonearm later (if dissatisfied . . . or even if not). The kabusa web site has a lot of interesting tweaks for the 1200 (which appeals to me). Thanks for your input.
NO NO NO, get the rega. The technics is a modified DJ table and the hum and flutter is awful. For a few extra dollars (not much) you could have a much better source.
__________________ Portable: 160 gb Ipod classic (for lossless files), 80 gb ipod video ---- ALO Cryo Dock LOD ---- RSA Predator ---- Ety ER4p, UE TF10, ATH-ESW9, Grado 125
Transportable when using AKG701 Home: Rotel RB940x to Monarchy DIP----> Bel Canto Dac1 or Thorens 166 with Linn Akito Arm and Benz Micro M2 with Lehmann black Cube Phono Preamp ---- Yba Integre DT Integrated Amp ---- Dynaudio Focus 140; all Nordost wires; PS Audio Line Treatment
NO NO NO, get the rega. The technics is a modified DJ table and the hum and flutter is awful. For a few extra dollars (not much) you could have a much better source.
Heh. I should have known there'd be sharp disagreement--it always seems to be the case at head-fi (part of the reason I love it). Maybe I'll get both and unload the one I don't like as much. If they are at all comparable, though, I'm more likely to keep the one with an upgrade path. On the other hand, maybe I'll lowball both and see which is the better deal.
Just out of curiosity, have any of you heard both on the same system (with significant listening time)?
I would rank the Technics tonearm once modded to be equal to the Rega.
I haven't heard the rega, but the 1200 fitted with either the Micro Seiki MA-505 MKI or MK3 is a deadly combination. I used to own the gold coloured version of the 1210 with the brass coloured MA-505 MK3. Bling it looked, but it had high-end performance by the bucket load.
Just out of curiosity, have any of you heard both on the same system (with significant listening time)?
They are both good starter decks but the Technics has real potential with a more modern arm.
I have lived with a Rega Plannar 3 and several pairs of Technics SL1200/1210s over the years. Both need to be on a very good isolated foundation like a wall shelf without which the Rega sounds cheap and nasty and the Technics sounds noisy and old fashioned.
Set up to the best possible extent in stock form the Rega is probably the more musically satisfying of the two and although it lacks real weight behind the instruments it bowls you over with sheer exuberance.
The Technics is a different animal altogether. In stock form it sounds much more solid than the Rega and times much better with drums starting and stopping in a far more realistic manner for instance compared to the soft focus of the Rega. Where the stock arm really lets it down is control. It just doesn't sound in control compare to a Rega arm and the top end especially sounds a bit muddy and closed in which overall makes it seem a bit mechanical and uninvolving.
I've not heard the Kabusa mods but by the time you've mounted a silcon damper and rewired it you might just as well have bought an RB250 or the Origin Live OL1 version which really elevates the Technics into a different class altogther.
Well, I have an appointment to go look at the 1200. The current owner picked it up used from someone (he claims) who used it solely for listening to music (not DJ purposes). Does that matter either way? He also used it only for listening to music.
The owner also does not know the age. If it's in good condition, I suppose I don't really care. He said he'd take $200 for it, which sounds reasonable.
As for evaluating the condition, I'm told that I should look at how the platter spins as well as just the obvious appearance (he claims it's in "great" condition). Obviously, I'll want to hear it. Other than that, is there anything in particular that I can do to determine if it's a good buy?
By the way, the Rega owner was not available, so I couldn't get any info.
NO NO NO, get the rega. The technics is a modified DJ table and the hum and flutter is awful. For a few extra dollars (not much) you could have a much better source.
LeeMark,
You might want to read up on the Technics' origin and specs. The 1200 is an audiophile table that has been co-opted by the DJ crowd. The 1200 has a rumble figure of -80dB, Speed accuracy of 0.005% and Wow & Flutter of 0.01%. Which table exactly can soundly beat these specs in the Technics' or even the Rega P3's price point?
to the most recent post by the OP, at $200 it is absolutely worth a look or 3.
when you turn on the beast and start it, the platter should come up to speed within a second. the "stop" function is adjustable and subject to adjustments. if you are using the TT for audiophile stuff, i would "detune" the brake. the brake can spin the platter backwards which will destroy most hi-fi carts, and hi-fi apps dont require the platter to stop in 1/2 second or less... if you accidentally press the button with the needle down it could be bad.
i would check to make sure that the platter has no side to side movement, or wobble in the bearing. it is normal for the bearing to have some "pure vertical" play in it if you try to pull off the platter.
check that the speed slider works well. they are not always adjusted great from teh factory, and the "dent" is an actual switch to lock the TT at 0% deviation.
Originally Posted by randyruiz
I have owned a Rega p3 with R300 tonearm. I would rank the Technics tonearm once modded to be equal to the Rega.
OK I have my flame retardant underwear on so Rega tone arm lovers FLAME ON.
i took out some stuff.
herein lies the rub with what i think you just said. there is a SIGNIFICANT debate whether the tonestick or the record rotator is more important to the reproduction of music. the folk in these debates often ignore the cartridge and clam that either is more important than the cart, i guess the tonearm first and "plinth&platter" first camps do agree on one thing... i think the current trend is towards "plinth& platter" first, but it goes back and forth. gotta drum up buisness...
anyways, i think that EVERYONE agrees that a change to the plinth/platter can be VERY significant, similarly for a change to the tonearm.
it is no secret that rega is a tonearm company. they make tonearms as their #1 priority. they spent all of their money in the early 80's designing a SINGLE PIECE arm this is VERY good for removing unwanted flaws. their plinths (almost all of them) are surpassed by many others in the same price bracket.
from what you said above, it does not sound like you mounted the Rega arm on the Technics. to make a valid comparason of the tonearms (and only the tonearms, not the whole system...) the SAME TT and cartridge must be used. you are changing 2 or 3 parts of a 3 part system at once (you didnt menton if the cartridge was the same on both decks) and making a claim about 1.
Originally Posted by LeeMark
NO NO NO, get the rega. The technics is a modified DJ table and the hum and flutter is awful. For a few extra dollars (not much) you could have a much better source.
a REGA? LOL
there are better TT's than the technics, but for $250, all you get of them is 2 of the 3 feet you need to support a TT.
saying that the technics is a modified DJ table (aside from being redundant) is like saying that a VW bug is like a modified porsche speedster.
someone else said that the Technics 1200 is a modded hi-fi table, and this is true. the 1200 was based on an older direct drive technics (the 1700 i think) that DJ's took a liking too. AFAIK the 1200 was always marketed as a DJ deck, but it has its roots in the hi-fi, and they share many parts. one could easily argue that the modifications to the old deck make the 1200 BETTER suited to hi-fi use.
__________________
Originally Posted by mkmelt
ACHTUNG - ALLES KOPFPHONERLISTENERS
Alles kopfphonerlisteners non-technischens! Das tubenmachine is nicht for gefengerpoken und mittengrabben. Oderwise is easy schnappen der springenverk, blowenfus, und poppencap, mit spitzensparken, und smokentubes. Geverken inside der tubenmachine is fur der experten only. Is nicht fur geverken inside by das dumpkopfen. Das rubbernecken amateuren keepen das cotton-picken hands in das pockets. Just relaxen, enjoyen der musik, und vatchen das pretty glowentubes.
anyways, i think that EVERYONE agrees that a change to the plinth/platter can be VERY significant, similarly for a change to the tonearm.
To flesh this out a bit more. Until the 1970s most people assumed the only important thing a turntable (plinth / motorboard) did was spin at the right speed and had little influence on the sound. The cartridge was the most important thing and the relationship between cartridge and tonearm mass was where all the design efforts were being focused.
So the Technics, on the evidence of the figures quoted in another post above, being direct drive, would outperform any belt driven motorboard on this basis.
However it's more complex than this as Linn were among the first to point out. The actual motorboard and plinth have a large impact on the sound for the following reason.
Basically a turntable system is a seismographic instrument. It's function is to measure tiny vibrations and separate out the ones which you want to hear in the music from any others resulting from the mechanical inteface of the stylus in the groove or airborne or structural vibrations in the apparatus or it's surroundings.
Until this time most companies had just concentrated on the platter rotating at the right speed and being decoupled from the motor and left the siting of the whole device at the discretion of the user, in some cases even to the extent of the user having to design and build a plinth.
Common wisdom was that the plinth just needed to be as high mass as possible with just some judicious use rubber gromets in order to damp any vibrations. This also means of course that the plinth needs to be large and heavy, fashioned from as dense and acoustically inert material as possible.
Technics flagship SL-1000, the grandaddy of the SL series, sported a substantial obsidian (volcanic glass) plinth.
Linn, like Thorens and Acoustic Research, were designing a record player to be used in a domestic environment and argued that a suspended subchassis carefully tuned and built into an unassuming wooden plinth which could be placed on a light yet rigid piece of furniture resulted in the best sounding source.
But a decent supended subchassis is a complex thing to build and expensive so on a budget deck like the Rega and the cheaper Duals a conventional solid plinth with some rudimentary shockabsorbing feet was all you got.
Originally Posted by nikongod
it is no secret that rega is a tonearm company. they make tonearms as their #1 priority. they spent all of their money in the early 80's designing a SINGLE PIECE arm this is VERY good for removing unwanted flaws. their plinths (almost all of them) are surpassed by many others in the same price bracket.
Rega's groundbreaking RB-300 tonearm was conceived as a means of making a budget turntable sound as good as possible. By addressing the problems with budget tonearms instead of trying to cut corners on suspended subchassis plinths like Dual and Thorens, they completely captured the lower end of the market.
Their original Planar 3 came with an arm made by Acos in Japan which looked very similar to almost every other standard tonearm at the time including the one on the SL1200.
By casting the arm in one piece they overcame many of the problems with cheaper tonearms at a stroke and revolutionised the market. The RB250 / 300 arms are actually quite rough and ready if you run your fingers over them and the casting is slightly crude but very effective and easier and less labour intensive to manufacture once the production is set up. It took SME's V and IV to carry these concepts to complete fruition.
At the time in the early '80s the Regas cost substantially less than the Technics SL1200, under half if memory serves. The Technics was a scaled down version of their broadcast decks which was originally offered as SL1200 with Technics tonearm or SL120 without tonearm and usually fitted with an SME 3009 or Series III.
The differences between then and now which account for the current prices of these turntables are more to do with the Technics having been adopted as an icon by millions of aspiring Hip Hop and House DJs the world over and selling millions of units into this market which it pretty much invented, while the market for audiophile turntables shrunk to a boutique one and prices spiralled accordingly.
Take this together with the current weakness of both the USD and Yen against the UKP and Euro and you have a miracle of Japanese mass production costing half as much as a low volume British built deck, the opposite of 30 years ago. The turntables themselves are little changed.
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