FrankenZERO - A bang for buck exploration with a DIY Heart !

[powertoold]

Excuse my incompetence, does a bypass PIO cap simply mean a PIO cap is used in parallel with the existing cap on the board, i.e. connected to the same pins but attached somewhere else?

[dacavalcante]

Originally Posted by powertoold

Excuse my incompetence, does a bypass PIO cap simply mean a PIO cap is used in parallel with the existing cap on the board, i.e. connected to the same pins but attached somewhere else?

That is it, bypass caps go in parallel with the one mentioned to be. It does not replace any caps....
I was with this doubt also.....

[sennsay]

Originally Posted by powertoold

Excuse my incompetence, does a bypass PIO cap simply mean a PIO cap is used in parallel with the existing cap on the board, i.e. connected to the same pins but attached somewhere else?

Yes mate, it does, that's exactly correct. These Russian beauties almost defy description in what they do with the signal, or maybe that ought to be 'allow' with the signal. I was entranced well into the early morning last night with stunning SQ from the system! It goes well beyond what most people know of the term HI-FI. Simply mind boggling.

S-Man

[dacavalcante]

Originally Posted by sennsay

Yes mate, it does, that's exactly correct. These Russian beauties almost defy description in what they do with the signal, or maybe that ought to be 'allow' with the signal. I was entranced well into the early morning last night with stunning SQ from the system! It goes well beyond what most people know of the term HI-FI. Simply mind boggling.

S-Man

Yes, I agree with you, after franken I stopped caring about quality on non Hi-Fi setups....... so much that I'm acctually duplication my songs collection on 23kbps 44khz AAC.....
Well, on my work computer with an onboard soundcard and a Sony Ericson celular headphone, I really don't think I need more than this..... Yet AAC is far far better then mp3 and it's even not as painful as 128kbps mp3....
When I'm listening to my work setup I count hours on my fingers to get home and listen again to Franken with my senn 650....

[powertoold]

Originally Posted by sennsay

Yes mate, it does, that's exactly correct. These Russian beauties almost defy description in what they do with the signal, or maybe that ought to be 'allow' with the signal. I was entranced well into the early morning last night with stunning SQ from the system! It goes well beyond what most people know of the term HI-FI. Simply mind boggling.

S-Man

Have you compared the FrankenZero to any other good sources?

[sennsay]

Originally Posted by powertoold

Have you compared the FrankenZero to any other good sources?

Not recently. We're talking a town of 35,000 people here and the access to such kit means borrowing long term to make a comparison worthwhile. Yes, I do borrow gear from a hi-fi shop or two, but not the sort of level that would be required to make a meaningful comparison (ie, expensive!!). At the moment, after 35 years of hearing gear up to $65,000 and more, I am not that bothered, to be honest. Nearly all of that kit never gave me a fraction of the sheer unadulterated joy I have with the terrific synergy of Sennheiser 650's, Frankie and KHA I.5 (as she is now) and the quasi-balanced Neotech cables linking them together. I would like a really good optical cable though!
Apart from a few exceptions, little I've heard in those years comes close to this present experience and in many ways it's pointless to look back, I've changed so much and my desires and expectations for what I want from my music has evolved considerably. S-Man

[powertoold]

You're going to push me into doing this mod

[sennsay]

Originally Posted by powertoold

You're going to push me into doing this mod

powertoold, you just wait until you hear what Frankie does to your iBasso Viper!! Man, I have a Corda 2Move and not only does this leave the Zero's amps far behind for sheer neutrality and extension in the frequency extremes, it is just plain amazing with a set of Denon D1000's jacked in! I was gobsmacked, yet again!

You know you want to.

S-Man

[Coreyk78]

Well this sounds like a fun mod, I think I'm going to go for it.

For the PIO caps I need a total of 12 of the .033uF caps correct? I'll need to order those from one of the eastern block guys on ebay.

Also I don't use the headphone amp on the Zero much since I built my Millet, but I want to do the full mod anyway to try it out, I already have some .22uF k42s on hand, would that be a suitable substitute for the .1uF caps to bypass the elnas there or would they be too large? If needed it looks like beezar sells the .1uF caps individually so I wouldn't have to get those shipped from overseas.

edit- also wondering if anyone would know how the K40y caps compare to the K42y caps

[sennsay]

Originally Posted by Coreyk78

Well this sounds like a fun mod, I think I'm going to go for it.

For the PIO caps I need a total of 12 of the .033uF caps correct? I'll need to order those from one of the eastern block guys on ebay.

Also I don't use the headphone amp on the Zero much since I built my Millet, but I want to do the full mod anyway to try it out, I already have some .22uF k42s on hand, would that be a suitable substitute for the .1uF caps to bypass the elnas there or would they be too large? If needed it looks like beezar sells the .1uF caps individually so I wouldn't have to get those shipped from overseas.

edit- also wondering if anyone would know how the K40y caps compare to the K42y caps

Hiya buddy, why not just buy the whole kit from PP? That way you don't have to hunt for anything, it's all there and the results are simply mind blowing! My Frankie is nearing the 200 hour mark and you won't believe what this thing has gone through until you hear it for yourself.
Frankie really DOES become a blend of the best of analogue and digital in ways that have left me speechless with delight, I have heard nothing like this in over 30 years of audio! Most won't have until they have a Frankie and a good amp with it. Bold words? You and your Millet will explode with musical delight
My KHA I.5 amp, with it's own FrankenWorks mods, has become orders of magnitude greater than it's stock form, partly because of it's own mods and mostly from having Frankie ahead of it sending such a stunningly good signal.
PP (Prickely Pete) can help you with the caps question, I'm not sure at this stage. Cheers, S-Man

[DaMnEd]

Originally Posted by Coreyk78

... also wondering if anyone would know how the K40y caps compare to the K42y caps ...

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/4278665-post536.html

[tomb]

Originally Posted by DaMnEd

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/4278665-post536.html

Respectively, I disagree with the K-42 trashing review in that reference.

A more rational review for the K42's is given in dsavitsk's excellent and long-standing Notes on Output Coupling Capacitors. That said, I am certain that the K40's are a better cap, but they are both larger and more expensive in the same size ratings.

[Pricklely Peete]

I've had extensive listen time with both types....the K40 might have a slight edge in overall SQ but it's near impossible to nail down with any budget gear let alone reference level stuff.

YMMV ....tough to find K40's that will fit in this application so...in reality Tomb...you've made a pointless point WRT the thread.

I agree though if a K40 would fit I would switch to them...hell if a Teflon would fit...you get the idea. My personal # 1 choice, room be damned, is K75-10 PLIO bypassed with T3 Teflon......unbeatable SQ bar none ( but absolutely massive caps ).

Thanks for the link to d's impressions. He's been a great help to me with my tube amps of late.

Peete.

EDIT: After reading d's take I'd have to say I have way more experience with these using gear that is many times more resolute and transparent...I find no grain, no harsh treble (once fully formed)....in fact they absolutely kill the venerable Vit Q cap...in two key areas...bass reproduction and highs...yeah I know...highs.
I have to disagree with his rating....a solid 4 would be more like it. What he describes is the cap during it's lengthy burn in (300 hours at least)....no notes on burn in whatsoever in this review...makes the whole thing suspect in it's findings IMHO (on all the caps not just the K42Y-2's).

These caps take quite a while to settle (as do many other boutique caps)......for the first 100 hours the caps sound precisely like what d describes...give them 200 hrs more they are completely transparent, extended and dead neutral with no drawbacks unlike the Vit Q's which kill the low bass reproduction and roll off the highs...

My experience thus far is with K75-10 250V and 500V PLIO, T1 & T3 hi/low voltage Teflon, K42Y-2,K40Y-9 hi/low volatge PIOs, K72N-Teflon 500V, all of them require at least 300 hours with the Teflons needing 700 hours +. All sizes and variety of NOS Russian cap all with the same familiar burn in pattern required...These caps if anything are predictable across the types...they all go through multiple changes before settling...to review these in the midst of that settling does not give anyone a true picture of them...goes without saying really.

d's review although full of technical excellence fails in the critical aspect of the test....burn in is ignored....rendering the conclusions made next to useless. IMO.

I can understand his position though...to give each type and brand the time required to form would make the review process impossibly lengthy and most likely a gargantuan effort requiring many other's contributions to complete in a sane time period....what can I say..if the caps aren't formed you can't honestly judge the SQ...it's elementary IMHO..

I'm sorry d but that's how I see it and hear it.

[Pricklely Peete]

Originally Posted by Coreyk78

Well this sounds like a fun mod, I think I'm going to go for it.

For the PIO caps I need a total of 12 of the .033uF caps correct? I'll need to order those from one of the eastern block guys on ebay.

Also I don't use the headphone amp on the Zero much since I built my Millet, but I want to do the full mod anyway to try it out, I already have some .22uF k42s on hand, would that be a suitable substitute for the .1uF caps to bypass the Elnas there or would they be too large? If needed it looks like beezar sells the .1uF caps individually so I wouldn't have to get those shipped from overseas.

edit- also wondering if anyone would know how the K40y caps compare to the K42y caps

Hi Corey,

Yep, 12 x .033uf 500V for the main pcb, 2 x .1uf 160V on the H/Amp board and 1 x 1uf 160V for the BA HDAM cap mod. All are from the K42Y-2 family of Russian caps. Unfortunately none of the K40Y-9 types fit underneath the Zero's pcb using the stock standoffs (which have to be used unless you want to relocate all the outputs and inputs on the back panel).

Don't forget to get either Fairchild or National Semiconductor UF4007 diodes...these are critical to the mod as well as the all the other parts.

Use any type of electrolytic you want but make sure they are low ESR type and used in the sizes and *voltages specified...that's very important. Boutique caps such as Muse ES, Nichicon FG,FK...Elna Cerafine, Silmic II although a little bit more money than Panasonic FC/FM or Nichicon HE/PW etc...are worth the extra money (it'll be quite a bit more in fact) if money isn't an issue.

I have all kinds of caps now but still prefer my original parts list (one upgrade to come is the OS-Cons around the logic chips). I feel no great urge to swap the PW's for FG's or MUSE. Besides it seems odd to me to use parts like that on a 130 dollar DAC.

Anyway...if you have questions ...ask loads of them, guys here can help you out with whatever you want to try.

Peete.

* the ideal voltages for the 4 lytics around the DAC chip is 16V or less with 10V ideal. Tough to find OS-CONs >100uf rated at < 16V...maybe even 25V...so there are always compromises to weigh. Current FrankeZERO kit uses Elna Silmic II's 100uf at 25V. Digikey only carries certain stock with respect to "boutique caps" which I find kinda odd...but what can you do...that is why I spec'd that type and voltage rather than going on a Easter egg hunt across the globe for 50 OS CON's that nobody had in that quantity.

It's and end user upgrade that is easy to source and to implement thus it's mention in many posts of late.

[tomb]

Originally Posted by Pricklely Peete

I've had extensive listen time with both types....the K40 might have a slight edge in overall SQ but it's near impossible to nail down with any budget gear let alone reference level stuff.

YMMV ....tough to find K40's that will fit in this application so...in reality Tomb...you've made a pointless point WRT the thread.
</snip>

Then you missed my point. The main point is that the K42's don't deserve the senseless trashing that was contained in the link that DaMnEd referenced.

P.S. As I also noted, there are size and cost advantages with the K42's as opposed to the K40's. They are certainly a worthy option when those considerations are important.