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Go Back   Head-Fi: Covering Headphones, Earphones and Portable Audio > Equipment Forums > Computer Audio

Computer Audio Discussion of computers as source components, sound cards, USB DACs, media servers, etc.

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Old 06-13-2007, 07:00 PM   #91 (permalink)
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First, about my laptop vs the macbook pro in gaming,

My 7800gtx is running at desktop clock speeds and connected using pcie 16x. The only difference between my card and the desktop version is that the mobile version is 90nm and the desktop one is 130nm(might be 110). Besides, there are plenty of benchmarks that show them getting the same performance.

When I bought my laptop Core Duos were only a few months away. However, I wouldn't have been able to get the 7800gtx for it, and certainly not for $270. I basically had to chose between a dual core and a super fast video card. I also really needed a new computer at the time so I wasn't too excited about waiting for Yonah to come out and then for Asus to release laptops for it. I was also afraid that 667mhz ram would be too expensive and would end up costing me a fortune. Besides, I didn't really see a need for daul core because I don't do cpu intensive tasks. In gaming, dual core systems make little to no difference. Some newer games are dual core optimized, but since I game at 1920x1200 anyway, the video card is the bottle neck, not the cpu. The reason why I can fairly confidently say that for a 17" WUXGA laptop, my dell is better than the macbook pro in games is the fact that the 8600 has a 128bit bus while the 7800gtx has a 256bit one. For high resolutions, you need all the memory bandwidth you can get, so while the two cards perform about the same generally, the 8600 is bottlenecked. And here im referring to the desktop version of the card, I havent read any reviews of the mobile version but im assuming it most likely wont be any better.

As for you statement that my cpu is just a Pentium 3, that is spot on. The only problem is that you fail to realize that the Core Duo is just two pentium ms glued together. They have the exact same architecture, except for SSE3 and a slightly faster FSB. The Core 2 Duo, again, is also based on the pentium m, and by extension the pentium 3.

And one more thing,

I'm typing this in Camino. I installed OSX yesterday on my dell laptop. Im still just messing around with it. I can say though that already I think Safari and iChat both suck. I replaced them with camino/adium. I installed Onyx but it doesn't really seem to be too useful. How can I get it to "Zoom" my windows when I double click on the title bar instead of minimizing them?

Im going to hold off giving too many opinions until I have used it some more. The hardware support is fantastic though(no thanks to apple, most of the drivers for it are reverse engineered or ported from linux ones). I do have full OpenGL running on my 7800gtx though, with QE and everything and dual monitors. Neooffice is also a very nice office suite, I remember using one of the older versions on the macs at school and I thought it sucked, the new interface in 2.x is a lot nicer. I didn't like the fonts in firefox so I went to camino. AdiumX is a really nice app too. I want to mess around with Automator to see what it does. Any tips for cool apps to play with?
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Old 06-13-2007, 07:04 PM   #92 (permalink)
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but this board is all about placebo and how to take it for a walk anyway. i actually preferred the sound from my ibook g4, i am not sure if the output was different but it rocked. im quite sure i would never plug a pair of iem into my macbook pro, but then again... it has yet only to be tried.
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Old 06-13-2007, 07:30 PM   #93 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JadeEast View Post
In general I find that people who get into video from a
3-d animation or compositing background can find
Macs annoying as compared to people who just use them
to edit. You sound like you come more from the 3d world
were there tend to be more "power" users so I can
understand your point of view but can say that it is not
an very wildly held point of view as far as editing is concerned.
I agree. I know that I have some strong opinions but in the end macs and pc's are really not that far from each other. FCP is so close to premiere it's scary and more and more programs are available for both. I will probably be a pc-man to the end (gaming is a hobby), but I still acknowledge macs. I just tend to get aggravated when someone declares macs the best thing ever as I just see them as pc's but in a more closed setting. Everything has a stamp from Apple but with a premium price. Nothing wrong with that as Apple does control the whole experience but I like options and to tinker around.

But you know just for editing...I still find Premiere pro 2 to be better than FCP 6. The timeline is way easier to chart around with the mouse (fcp really goes haywire with a project longer than 25 minutes) and everything just seems smoother. There are a couple of things missing in fcp that premiere has and vice versa. Premiere also has good integration with After Effects though the addition of Color to the FCP suite is cool.
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Old 06-14-2007, 02:18 AM   #94 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by maarek99 View Post
Well you know, you can buy a cheap pc or you can buy an expensive one. The amount of variability in the pc world is a plus, not a minus.
My point was that Mac is more than competitive in the $1000 and up market. They aren't in the bargain arena.

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Old 06-14-2007, 02:20 AM   #95 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by maarek99 View Post
But you know just for editing...I still find Premiere pro 2 to be better than FCP 6.
For home applications, that may be true. But if you are doing production video editing work, Final Cut Pro is the only game in town short of a hardware solution like an Avid. I edited sound for TV using both Premiere and FCP, and found that FCP exported MUCH more seamlessly to ProTools.

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Old 06-14-2007, 05:28 AM   #96 (permalink)
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Video and Audio.

2 pop and export each channel as a stereo pair.
Line em up in a timeline.
Its old fashioned but works.
OMF is a nice feature but its only one way.

Adobe chose the AAF format for interchange format
it was an agreed upon standard but other companies
backed out of the deal and didn't quite support it as
it was agreed to.

Compatibility is more about who is in bed with who.
Digidesign is owned by Avid so they will always work best together.

Its a format and application jungle out there and
its only getting worse with HD on one side and
web video on the other. It would be nice if the
companies would all play together nice.
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Old 06-14-2007, 05:50 AM   #97 (permalink)
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H.264 is inferior to even older mpeg4-variants.
rofl you have a lot of proving to do there, buddy! H.264 is a godsend for those of us who like to compress video to smaller file formats. You should go speak to the people over at doom9 who do nothing but test different video codecs all day and have performed multiple tests that show x.264 and other H.264-based codecs beating seasoned players like xvid and divx pro.

I also live in a market where DirecTV uses H.264 for HDTV feeds. The quality versus cable (or even Dish Network) is astounding. Watching Game 5 of the Stanley Cup Finals was like I was at the Honda Center and just a few feet above the ice. H.264 is an amazing codec. You saying its "inferior" to older MPEG-4 variants just cost you any little bit of credibility you might have had left.

Besides as a player Quicktime sucks
How?

as a container for video quicktime sucks
Again, Quicktime is NOT a container. The .mov format is a container, but .mov is not called "Quicktime". Get your facts straight.

It's a poorly written, bug infested wormhole.
What bugs? And explain how it is poorly written please.

My home pc is more responsive (core 2 duo with 4 gigs of ram) than the top-of-the-line 8-core mac pro with 8 gigs of ram.
Should be very easy for you to provide proof for that statement. On the other hand, there are countless benchmarks available via google search that basically prove you wrong.

but other inconveniences get in the way like really limited system information tools.
Oh? Thats funny because I can click System Profiler and find out such information like... how many cycles my battery has been through, even the current maximum capacity. Activity Monitor tells me more about whats going on in my system than even the new Task Manager in Vista.

When something fails on a mac you're totally screwed compared to the windows installation.
Explain this please. Because, unlike Windows, OS X doesn't spontaneously commit suicide and require a full OS reinstallation

And yes, macs aren't nearly as stable as mac fanatics want to make them seem.
Going on 3.5 months here on OS X and not a single crash or software crash. Yet only 1.5 months with a Vista laptop, with a fresh install, and it has fully crashed 6 times and already required one reinstall.

I'm not light on my Mac either. I'll have a webcam going in Windows Live Messenger running in XP in Parallels, playing a music video in iTunes, browsing the web with Firefox and doing some light photo editing in CS3. All with only a gig of RAM. IF that isn't a testament to system stability, I don't know what is.

Can I assign cores to different apps? I tried, didn't find anything useful.
Why would you do that when the OS supports multi-core by default? OS X actually takes advantage of multiple cores.

And I hate the way programs are installed in macs. Mounting images? What's up with that?
Whats wrong with the way applications are installed? For 90% of software you simply double click the .dmg file and a new window pops up. You drag and drop that icon to the Applications folder. Thats it. In Windows you have to run through an installer that can sometimes take forever and not even erase the temporary files it created (Nero, for example, leaves more than 600MB of temporary files behind). And, quite often, the uninstallers don't even work properly. Registry entries are left behind, files are scattered all over the hard drive. The worst that happens after uninstalling a Mac app (by right clicking and hit "send to trash") is one or two .plist files are left behind. A far cry from having a registry get bloated and become unstable thanks to software not being fully removed.

Quicktime (.mov) is a container the same way .avi is a container. They can contain sorenson video 3, h.264, divx, etc. So a...YES IT IS!
Quicktime is the name of the PLAYER. Not the name of ANY file format. Get your facts straight. How can we take you seriously if you can't even get simple facts like this right?

By shutting them down 5 minutes after idleing? That will more likely decrease the life of your hd because of the constant parking of the heads.
As opposed to constantly spinning and wearing down the bearings, motors, and other moving parts? Also generating heat that will speed up the process of dying?

Anyway, unlike Windows, Macs can properly use sleep mode. So simply uncheck "sleep hard drives when possible" and use sleep mode. Unlike Windows, you don't have to worry about your system crashing upon waking up or not being abl to connect to a network.

You've obviously never done network renderings with a mac? What you're saying is very ******* funny when mac's go completely ape**** when transferring large amounts of image sequences over the network.
If you're being honest at all, which I highly doubt considering your comments, I would attribute your problem to the software you're using. I've moved about 30 gigs of data over a gigabit network and the Macs had no problem running at full speed when the transfer was finished. However, I tried moving 16GB of data between XP Home and XP MCE 2005 systems and, after spending far too much time getting XP Home being able to see MCE on the network because Microsoft, in all of their brilliance, decided that XP home and MCE/Pro would use different methods of networking, it failed half way through each time. Why? Because Either Windows system would lose the ability to communicate with the network. It doesn't just happen to me either. I know more people than I can count who simply can't connect to their DSL or cable (Directly connected to the modem) after leaving their Windows systems on for a few hours. Clean installs, no viruses, no spyware, nothing.

[quote[Oh my god you're stupid... This is like reading some childs explanations.[/quote]

Its still the funniest thing in the world when people resort to flaming because they have no way to back up their own argument.

You don't know that quicktime is container, you don't know how to search in Vista, you don't know anything about mpeg4 codecs, about why indexing is good to disable, yeah you're a real wizard.
I don't know how to search in Vista? rofl. I'm sorry but if I typed in the SPECIFIC file name WITH extension in Spotlight or even XP's search, the file would turn up in the results. However, Vista simply returns NOTHING.

Again, Quicktime is the name of the PLAYER. Quicktime is NOT a file format or name for a container. It is a PIECE OF SOFTWARE.

And considering your little comment earlier about H.264 being "inferior", you're in no place to comment about codecs at all.

Our production house uses a strictly pc-based approach to rendering. You don't even have Fusion for macs.
And what exactly has your "production house" produced? Lets see some results.

LOTR used macs? For what? Not for anything big and the proprietary visual effects software was really not written for any mac.
Go watch the interviews on the extended edition DVDs

But since you're a big bad effects producer, you should already know!

Yeah, especially when the programs DON'T RUN
on macs. That's why we boot it to vista.
The only reason I have Windows in Parallels is... well, for my friends who aren't capable of setting up Skype to use a webcam and use MSN. Other than that, there is no reason to run Windows at all.

Yeah, They use Fusion. Tell me again how Fusion is not for macs? And they don't use macs for anything but photoshop work or fcp editing. That's it.
Oh?

http://www.ballergoods.com/home/2007...l-effects.html

The main visual effects team that worked on 300 said that they used 15 G5's for creating all of the visual effects, and ended up using 16 terabytes of disc space for the entire project.
So who is more reliable here? The production team behind one of the most successful movies of the year with some of the best CG we've ever seen..

or a person on a forum who can't grasp the concept of Quicktime being a piece of software and NOT the name for a file format? Oh and that same person has proven to be nothing more than an anti-Apple fanboy.

I couldn't even read your message to the end. It was just so full of trendy mac bs. But you know, there are fanatics in religion and computers, nothing to do about it.
More mindless flaming because you can't backup your own argument.

Just admit you're wrong and that you don't use Mac and everything will be fine.

You can get back all of the dignity you lost.

In gaming, dual core systems make little to no difference. Some newer games are dual core optimized
What? Are you crazy? Any game worth even half of its price tag released in the last several years has been optimized for dual core processors or taken advantage of them.

. For high resolutions, you need all the memory bandwidth you can get, so while the two cards perform about the same generally, the 8600 is bottlenecked.
You're discounting the CPU's affect on gaming far too much. You're acting as if the CPU makes no difference at all.

CPU's still have to basically set up the entire world, calculate the physics, the AI, the way the AI interacts, process the sound, tell the GPUs what goes where and how it will look, control and respond to the user input, manage things like network resources, etc. etc. etc. etc. The CPU basically does EVERYTHING. The GPU just makes it look pretty.

So I GUARANTEE you that your Pentium M is FAR more of a bottleneck than the 128-bit bus on the 8600M.

You have a desktop, correct? Go into the BIOS or use jumpers on the motherboard to throttle the CPU speed down and try to keep your gaming going at high resolutions. It won't happen.

I mean, even on my HP system with an ATI Xpress 200M, I was able to push the FSB of the Turion64 up to 400MHz (DDR) and get a performance increase.

Your Pentium 3-based CPU will hamper your gaming performance a lot more than the 128-bit bus in the 8600M. I remember having a GeForce2 MX with 128-bit bus in a Coppermine Pentium 3 based system at 1GHz and putting it in a system with an Athlon T-bird 1.4GHz. The performance nearly DOUBLED.

The Core 2 Duo, again, is also based on the pentium m, and by extension the pentium 3.
*sigh*

The Core 2 Duo is basically a combination of the best of the Pentium M and Pentium 4 with the "netburst" technology thrown out. It is NOT a Pentium 3 with P4 FSB speeds like the Pentium M. It's a mostly NEW architecture based on what Intel learned with both the P4 and P3/M/Core

The Pentium M has technology with roots as far back as the Pentium Pro.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_C...roarchitecture

I installed OSX yesterday on my dell laptop.
So you're admitting to pirating software on a public forum? Good job there.

On the other hand, OS X runs like **** on platforms it was NOT designed for. OS X does require SSE3 for many applications and basic functions. So you're not even getting 50% functionality out of it.

Installing OS on a Dell and expecting it to run good is no different than taking a Cobra engine out of a 2007 Cobra and putting it in a big truck and expecting the truck to be able to go fast.

I can say though that already I think Safari and iChat both suck.
Explain how.

Safari is faster than Firefox, has a more streamlined UI, and uses MUCH less system resources and RAM. It's also a lot more stable. Keeping in mind that Camino is basically an old version of Firefox designed to look better in OS X.

Whats wrong with iChat? It has all of the features of AIM without the spyware and in a MUCH smaller package.

But again, you're not even getting 50% functionality out of the system.

I installed Onyx but it doesn't really seem to be too useful.
Onyx is for system maintenance. Keep in mind that OS X doesn't require even 1/4 as much maintenance as Windows or Linux does.

How can I get it to "Zoom" my windows when I double click on the title bar instead of minimizing them?
Theres no use telling you how to take advantage of all of OS X's tools to make the UI easier to use and more intuitive, like Expose, considering your installation of OS X is not even 50% functional. Oh and its illegal.

The hardware support is fantastic though(no thanks to apple, most of the drivers for it are reverse engineered or ported from linux ones)
However, if you legitimately use OS X (by getting a Mac), you do get driver support from Apple nd the manufacturer.

Any tips for cool apps to play with?
Yeah, go get a Mac if you want to see what OS X is truly capable of. Again, running an illegal and generally hacked up copy of OS X on a platform it was not designed for on a processor that doesn't support all of the required instruction sets OS X needs is like taking an engine from a sports car and putting it in a truck and expecting it to be fast.

(gaming is a hobby)
And better on consoles, dead on PCs and Macs.

but I like options and to tinker around
Which is funny, because I linked you to a site that PROVES that OS X has much more to "tinker around" with than any version of Windows.. maybe even all of them combined.
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Old 06-14-2007, 07:13 AM   #98 (permalink)
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ummm... wow, OK.

Where shall we start?

First off, the GeForce 2 did not have a 128bit memory bus.

Second, you really underestimate the amount of bandwidth it requires to run games at 1920x1200. In every game I have tried, changing the video card clock speed makes a major difference. The cpu speed however made very little difference(the CPU was 1.73ghz stock, I replaced it with a 2.0ghz one).

As for your highly ignorant statements that I dont get half the functionality of OSX, can you please tell me what I am missing out on, because everything works perfectly well to me. I have expose, dashboard, Quartz Extreme, shadows, genies, im even using the Milk theme right now. Ive got a 1920x1200 LCD on my laptop and an external 1440x900 LCD, both of them are running perfectly. I have all the apps I want installed, everything works great. Wireless is working too.

As for your claims about performance, I ran Xbench on here and got a score of 75. According to their website, that is about what you get with a low end macbook. Thats pretty good, considering im using "pentium pro" technology on a "50% functional" OS on a crappy dell.

Now, as for safari, I just dont like it. I prefer Camino. Btw, camino is about 1 month or two old right now, it isnt "outdated"

As for iChat, thats simple. It doesn't support MSN, so it is useless. End of story. AdiumX supports AIM/MSN and is just all around cooler.

And if you want me to buy a mac, dream on. First of all, my laptop is all around better than a macbook anyway. Better video card, larger hard drive, more ram, dvd rw, Dual DVI/VGA out, 17" LCD, etc. Second of all, an imac is literally twice as expensive as a superior hand-built pc. I just checked.

Specs:
2.4ghz Core 2 Duo
2GB Ram
DVD RW
nVidia 8600GTS
Logitech G5 mouse
Saitek keyboard
20.1" 1680x1050 LCD
500GB HDD

All of that comes out to about $1250, thats including spending $160 on a nice case and power supply and $120 on a nice motherboard.

The imac comes in at $2200, with a 2.33ghz cpu, a slower video card, and slower ram (667mhz compared to 1066mhz).
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Old 06-14-2007, 07:27 AM   #99 (permalink)
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Last time I checked this is a Computer AUDIO thread. Who cares which computer is superior, plays games better, or downloads pornography faster. Drop the computer war and let's talk about sound!

I still say any soundcard really can't match the deal with the cheapest external DAC out there. My entech 203.2 blows away the mac's soundcard along with my friends EMU 1212. What's nice about any mac is the optical out. Take advantage of it.
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Old 06-14-2007, 08:39 AM   #100 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by aaronylee View Post
I just got the new macbook pro that was updated on Tuesday.

I was really surprised when I plugged in my DT 880s and found that the laptop was actually able to drive them unamped, and the sound wasn't half bad either!

Has anyone else noticed this with past macbook pros? This is my first one so I wasn't sure if they had changed the audio card or not.
I'm having the same experience with the new Santa Rosa equipped MBP of 5 June. I expected a slight incremental upgrade and almost skipped this one entirely. The LED LCD panel alone is worth the upgrade, IMO.

I'm listening to mine with DT-990/32s at the moment and couldn't be happier with the result. I have a fair collection of amps that I could use, but I'm satisfied with the SQ directly from the HP out.

I bought an Airport Extreme (-11n) at the same time and hooked up a WD My Book 500GB HDD which is filled about halfway with tunes. The whole latch-up took all of ten minutes!

So who are we to believe, our spec-spoutin' brethren or our lyin' ears?
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