EMU 0404USB: 1/4 TS vs. Stereo Output - an underrated difference

[penguindude]

There has been a lot of discussions on the EMU 0404USB lately, mainly focusing on its various features and excellent DAC function for the money. Indeed, the EMU 0404USB seems like a unbeatable all-in-one solution to all your listening/recording needs. However, it seems that most users have been connecting their 0404 through the mini-stereo output to their amps/receivers. There was very little info on the 1/4" TS connection. So, having fully enjoyed the mini-stereo output, I decided to check out the TS connection (unbalanced) and see if there is difference/improvement to the mini-stereo output.

Using two 1/4" Mono-to-RCA cable, I connected my EMU 0404USB to my amp. I was shocked at the sound coming out of my HD600. It was simply...incredible

Everything has MUCH more clear separation and vocal/instrument placement is EXTREMELY noticeable and precise. Doing a back-and-forth comparison with the mini-stereo to RCA output, the stereo output seems much more crowded into one sound; whereas the TS connection seems like everything is being untangled and spread onto the floor. In multi-vocal songs, I can now actually identify where the woman is "standing" and where the man's voice is coming from. While the collaboration of voices was still evident before, with the new connection, it is MUCH more obvious and much more accurate.

If I was to summarize my experience in one statement, I'd say that The EMU0404 USB brings 'transparency' to a new height.

[sejarzo]

If that is the case, it probably has more to do with crosstalk in your mini cable than anything else. As far as I know, the mini jack is simply paralleled with the l/r "hots" and signal ground on the TRS jacks.

Maybe one of the members who's taken the box apart to look for potential mods can confirm the circuitry. I think the best collection of internal pics died in the Great Crash, however.

[sejarzo]

Forgot to ask, which headamp?

[subfocus]

Perfect timing Penguindude.....I've actually spent the last half hour considering whether to give this a try , when I stumbled upon your post !! I remember reading something in one of the USB0404 threads where this came up and someone stated the difference would be (theoretically) indistinguishable from using the mini-stereo output. Your actual experience seems to say otherwise though....... so i'm definitely going to give it a whirl now(into the DV 332). Thanks for that ......

[subfocus]

Originally Posted by sejarzo

If that is the case, it probably has more to do with crosstalk in your mini cable than anything else. As far as I know, the mini jack is simply paralleled with the l/r "hots" and signal ground on the TRS jacks.

Maybe one of the members who's taken the box apart to look for potential mods can confirm the circuitry. I think the best collection of internal pics died in the Great Crash, however.

Sejarzo ..... so you're saying that any difference could well be because the mini cable is simply not functioning correctly ?? Forgive my ignorance..but is that what is meant by crosstalk ? or is it something else ?

[ph0rk]

FYI, they aren't just TS, they are TRS balanced, too.

[sejarzo]

Originally Posted by subfocus

Sejarzo ..... so you're saying that any difference could well be because the mini cable is simply not functioning correctly ?? Forgive my ignorance..but is that what is meant by crosstalk ? or is it something else ?

No, it's just basic physics at work.

Most mini-to-mini cables have three (or possibly four) conductors inside.....some might even be constructed out of standard balanced mic cable, with a single twisted pair inside a braided shield (the pair used for left and right, the shield used as ground.) If I DIY a mini-to-mini from starquad, I use the two white conductors for l/r signal and the two blue conductors for the ground; I connect the shield to the ground on one end only--the one normally connected to the source.

When signal conductors run in such close proximity to each other as is typical for such cables, an interference phenomenon called "inductive coupling" occurs, causing the signals to leak to some degree into each other:

Inductive coupling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When one runs independent TS-to-RCA cables out of the other jacks, there is greater physical separation......and the shield on the outside of such cables serves to prevent any interference. The potential for interaction between the left and right signals is dramatically reduced....which very well could have an impact on imaging.

Disclaimer: Any real EE's out there should feel free to correct anything I said that's not quite right, thanks in advance!

[penguindude]

Originally Posted by ph0rk

FYI, they aren't just TS, they are TRS balanced, too.

Yes, the EMU also has that function. Although my current config (to a LD MKIII tube amp) only allows stereo RCA (unbalanced) connection. So, the connection is unbalanced (duo-mono) to rca.

In response to "crosstalk", all I can say is that I'm using very high quality mini-stereo to RCA cables, perhaps that is the nature of all mini-to-RCA cables?

[subfocus]

Thats a great help , many thanks for the detailed explanation Sejarzo ...... As i'm currently using a very old mini-stereo to RCA connector anyway , i'm going to try this out and see what happens. I've got some nice RCA - to - RCA interconnects coming , so I just need to source some TRS connectors here in the UK and get someone to adapt the cables...

[penguindude]

Originally Posted by subfocus

Thats a great help , many thanks for the detailed explanation Sejarzo ...... As i'm currently using a very old mini-stereo to RCA connector anyway , i'm going to try this out and see what happens. I've got some nice RCA - to - RCA interconnects coming , so I just need to source some TRS connectors here in the UK and get someone to adapt the cables...

Just for clarification sake, you can't connect a TRS (stereo) adapter to the end of a RCA. You need a TS (Mono) adapter for your RCA cable. Also, I recommend you buy a 1/4" TS Mono to RCA cable instead of using adapters.

Currently, I'm using some low-cost high quality cables from Hosa.

[subfocus]

Thanks for that.... I'm getting mixed up between TRS and TS here. Can TS plugs simply be soldered on to an RCA lead ? Its the first time I've come across these particular type of connectors .

Originally Posted by penguindude

Just for clarification sake, you can't connect a TRS (stereo) adapter to the end of a RCA. You need a TS (Mono) adapter for your RCA cable. Also, I recommend you buy a 1/4" TS Mono to RCA cable instead of using adapters.

Currently, I'm using some low-cost high quality cables from Hosa.

[sejarzo]

Originally Posted by subfocus

Thats a great help , many thanks for the detailed explanation Sejarzo ...... As i'm currently using a very old mini-stereo to RCA connector anyway , i'm going to try this out and see what happens. I've got some nice RCA - to - RCA interconnects coming , so I just need to source some TRS connectors here in the UK and get someone to adapt the cables...

As penguindude mentions, ideally you wouldn't use adapters, and you do need mono tip-sleeve 1/4" phone plugs, not TRS plugs.

On the other hand....before hacking up a new pair of RCA-to-RCA's, you might want to consider trying some adapters first, because the main difference should come from using separate cables.....these are what RadioShack sells in the US, but they're widely available throughout the world under a variety of brand names, I think:



EDIT: I was typing the above when you posted your question above.

There are only two connections in an RCA......signal and ground. So why wouldn't one be able to solder a TS plug on to the raw cable typically used for RCA-to-RCA cables?

TS connectors are exactly what are on all guitar/instrument cables.

[sejarzo]

This page will explain it better......

TRS connector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Scroll down to the section titled "Tip/ring/sleeve terminology".....the table and graphic make it clearer.

[Cankin]

I've read that, a true balanced DAC must have dual differential output from the chip itself, not just wired with XLR(or TRS) connectors.

Does 0404USB have true balanced output from the AK chip??

[subfocus]

Thanks , that does seem the better option to try this out .... Just checked and those adapters are indeed easily available here in the UK as well. It would be interesting to find out what other EMU0404 users experiences were when changing to RCA -to-TS.

Originally Posted by sejarzo

As penguindude mentions, ideally you wouldn't use adapters, and you do need mono tip-sleeve 1/4" phone plugs, not TRS plugs.

On the other hand....before hacking up a new pair of RCA-to-RCA's, you might want to consider trying some adapters first, because the main difference should come from using separate cables.....these are what RadioShack sells in the US, but they're widely available throughout the world under a variety of brand names, I think:



EDIT: I was typing the above when you posted your question above.

There are only two connections in an RCA......signal and ground. So why wouldn't one be able to solder one on to the raw cable typically used for RCA-to-RCA cables?