Wraping my mind around this whole studio mixing headphone thing.

[ZOKROX]

1) Do studio mixing engineers want a "universal" standard of "flatness"
or even care?

2) Studio mixing engineers use headphones that most closely match the
sound of their studio monitor speakers.

3) So why don't studio monitor speaker companies get together with
headphone companies to make studio mixing headphones that sonically "match" specific studio monitor speakers?

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The main studio mixing headphone thread:

http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=147566

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[phosfiend]

i like #3 - good idea. truth be told though - if you can use monitors, you tend to. that opinion might be influenced by the fact that i bought PRO700's instead of K271's... don't get me wrong, the PRO700's are cool, but very different from my monitors.

[Ant1]

Originally Posted by ZOKROX

1) Do studio mixing engineers want a "universal" standard of "flatness"
or even care?

There's no such a thing. It's not about "flatness" when you're working in a studio, it's about having monitoring equipment that will give you a representation of the sound you're working on so that it will sound equally as good wherever else the song will be played, be it in a club, on a cheap mono radio or a hi-fi system.
Normally, in a studio there's at least 2 monitoring systems: one which is precise, that will give you a non-coloured sound and reveal everything that should not be there, i.e. the sound of sheet music being turned-over by a musician, or over-compression, or unbalanced stereo field. This will generally be a set of speakers that are relatively small, that will sit closer to your ears on top of the mixing console as to negate unwanted sound reflections from the walls, etc... The other system will be generally much larger, typically with a least one 15' bass driver in order to give you a different image of your song. Good for checking that the song is balanced in the lower-frequencies. Good also to impress the "suits" that want to hear something "bombastic" when they come to hear on what their $$ has been spent!

2) Studio mixing engineers use headphones that most closely match the
sound of their studio monitor speakers.

Errr, no....Actually, quite the contrary. Headphones are just anothher source for checking the sound material in a studio. With headphones, you check whether the soundstage is the way you intended it to be: are the back-up singers too much spread-out, for instance? The only criteria for studio headphones is that they should represent the whole audio spectrum, and be revealing. You won't find Grados or Alessandros in many sound studios. Mainly AKG or Sennheiser and Fostex T40. Headphones are very rarely used for mixing but, as I said, just to give you another point of reference. In my experience in working in pop music studios (basically, for non-classical music, for lack of better terms), headphones are not the main concern by far. It's much more a consummer hi-fi thing I believe.

3) So why don't studio monitor speaker companies get together with
headphone companies to make mixing headphones that sonically match
specific studio monitor speakers?

Because that would be impossible as you have to take into account the sound reflections produced by any speaker as the sound bounces around the room (whether uncontrolably, or in a controled way). In other words, even if a headphone would have similar sound characteristics as a peaker in an anachronic chamber, the real-life results would not match: the sound from headphones are right there in your ears, whereas from the speakers, it's another story.

If you're trying to get to the point of finding out which headphones you should buy for studio mixing, I would say that any would be good as long as it reproduces the whole freq. spectrum, and as long as you also have some decent studio monitoring speakers (Dynaudio, Genelecs). The point is that once you KNOW the sound of your headphones, it becomes a relative judgement as to what constitutes a balanced mix. Let's say that your headphones are a little bass-heavy. Once you know how a good mix sounds in YOUR headphones (because you've checked it with your speakers too), then it's ok. The song might sound boomy in your bass-heavy phones, but you know that at a certain level of "boominess", it translates into the "right" mix.
To give you another example: Yamaha NS10 are a very popular choice in sound studios. They're cheap, consumer-based speakers, lacking any bass extension below 80Hz. However (a golden tip here for any of you who happen to own a pair), here was the tip for getting the bass right: turn-up the bass until the bass driver starts to "flap" (as it becomes unable to handle the bass freq). At that point, roll-off the bass just a tad, and there's your bass balance. Of course, at this point, you would switch to other monitoring sources (better speakers, headphones) to check your mix. The point I'm trying to make is that once you know your speakers or headphones, no matter how inadequate they might seem, you can get a decent mix, as long as you know how a good mix will sound on THOSE speakers (or headphones).

A.

[phosfiend]

Originally Posted by Ant1

The point I'm trying to make is that once you know your speakers or headphones, no matter how inadequate they might seem, you can get a decent mix, as long as you know how a good mix will sound on THOSE speakers (or headphones).

nailed it.

[shawntp]

I am currently trying to learn my headphones more for this. I work in a home/amerature setting like so many and while monitors are a good baseline as you move back and forth you learn the sounds of the gear you are firmiliar with and how to use it. I am trying to learn how sounds on my phones vs monitors vs living room and how subtle changes cascade across systems so I can do more mobile audio work (to actually get something finished for once ).

Its all a fun learning experience, and experience is the only thing that will get you there I guess. For me its just a hobby though, an expensive hobby.

[Ant1]

[QUOTE=shawntp]I am currently trying to learn my headphones more for this. I work in a home/amerature setting like so many and while monitors are a good baseline as you move back and forth you learn the sounds of the gear you are firmiliar with and how to use it. I am trying to learn how sounds on my phones vs monitors vs living room and how subtle changes cascade across systems so I can do more mobile audio work (to actually get something finished for once ).

The best way I found to achieve your goal is to burn on a CD your song. Then listen to it in as many environments and systems as possible, and take notes. How does the song (that you thought sounded great in your headphones) sound in your car? Not enough treble? "Ok, I'll over-emphasize the treble in my mix a bit..." Then you go back to your mix, add some treble - learn that sound! - and listen again in your car on a newly-burned CD. Too boomy on a decent hi-fi system? "Note: Cut down on the bass". Back to your mix. "Hmmm...Doesn't sound very bassy on my headphones...But THAT'S the sound that translates well on other systems, including my car. Ok." In the end, you might have learned that a good mix is, ON YOUR HEADPHONES, one that sounds relatively bass-shy and a little trebly, for instance.
The biggest problem mixing with headphones is the reverb on instruments/vocals. In your headphones, the amount of reverb might sound just right, giving, say, the vocals just the rght amount of "space" around them. Then - surprise! - on a pair of speakers, in your car, or wherever, they sound too dry. Why? Because in your car, in your room, in a club, high frequencies (part of the reverb) are absorbed by furniture, people, etc... Nothing of the sort in your headphones. So the "right" amount of reverb - the amount that actually sounds good everywhere, will be a fine balance between getting a "church effect" in your phones and too dry on speakers. Hint: equalize your reverb and roll-off the bass content (of the reverb ONLY - not the source itself). Bass in the reverb only muddies it and clutters the mix. Not too much though, experiment.

Good luck!

A.

[ZOKROX]

Thanks for the hands on insight Ant1.

[Ant1]

Originally Posted by ZOKROX

Thanks for the hands on insight Ant1.

Glad to help in any way. Looking forward to hear your tunes on radio!

A.

[Ant1]

One last thing...It's always better to substract eq rather than add it to your mix. If you find that your mix is a bit muffled, try first to find out whether there's an instrument that is maybe too bright, which takes over the high-freq spectrum, and which could maybe come down somehow. If you find it and roll-off some treble from it, often your mix will "open-up" and give room to the instrument or vocal that you want to emphasize. If you keep adding eq, you often will end up with a mess. The less eq, the better. And that is the secret of firstly recording the source right. For vocals, if you're too close to the mic, you end-up with a boomy sound. With a guitar, the mic placement in relation to the speaker's cone will dramatically change your sound, etc...If you take care in recording your source right in the first place, you will find that you'll need minimal eq during the mix, which will translate in a natural-sounding product. Lastly, beware of listening at high volume whilst you work. Reserve that pleasure for very short periods of time at the end. With high sound pressures your hearing will be compromised for that session (and long term too...) and you'll find that you won't be able to mix accurately anymore for that day, adding more high frequencies (in particular) more and more.
Sorry for talking about this in this forum...I know this is for headphones...But the music industry is hard enough as it is. Gotta help each other when and where we can, right?

A.