Moderator Headphoneus Supremus: Moderator and SHAman who knew of Head-Fi ten years prior to its existence
quite a while since we visited this thread My last post was in Sept
Anyhow, the point isn't the circuit layout exactly but the fact that the opamp was novel. In fact, if one examines the history (Rickcr42 has written about this the best and actually reiterated it just recently in Pink Floyd's drama thread) the opamp was the key to the design. This was a little known opamp that just happened to have wonderful current output and sounded great with Grados. No one knows how long they spent on this or how many opamps they tried, but the fact is..this opamp is/was the key and as such, this is the reason so many want RA-1 clones vs. a CMOY. R&D plays a part and why should Grado's hard work be ripped off easily? Ray's portable amps are also dead simple, text-book circuits, but with him covering his opamps it is a "hey, figure things for yourself!" remark to those that just want to come in and make knock-offs for profit.
From what I understand about SET circuits (or well, tube circuits in general) there are only a handful of possible configurations and then the rest is just swapping in parts and or tweaking things here or there. So why do some tube amps cost $1k and others 350000 if the circuits are everywhere! Obviously people are willing to pay for craftsmenship, reliability, warranty as well as good sound. There are those that claim all amps sound the same, tube or ss. Hey, whatever floats your boat, I don't feel that way nor do a good plenty of folks. For those that do hear a difference, why is it that an amp with the same circuit similar parts but made by different companies sound different? Seems the reasoning used there is easily applicable to the case of the RA-1. You may not agree, you may not think there is a difference in the sound, but certainly that is not the concensus on the forums.
Obviously something is going on. For those that want the magic of the RA-1 with the Grados, they get that by buying the RA-1. The choice is up to the individual. No one is forced to buy and as for the cost to profit ratio, Grado makes a heck of a lto less on their amp than most do around here. The RA-1 is not the simplest circuit either (though it is pretty close!) and yet other manufacturers don't take nearly the same heat. Grado seems to be a target and this stems from a time when the RA-1 was the only real amp for Grados and it continues on today, despite there being a whole whack of manufacturers who not only make a similar or even more basic circuit but charge more, make more and enjoy no flack from the community.
With the plethora of amp choices available now, I honestly don't know why so many fuss about an amp that is 10 years old now? Grado does not advertize, folks buy it either on the recommendation of their dealers or from online suggestions. If they end up buying and they enjoy it, who is to judge them? Move on...move on folks, life is too short.
yeah that seems to be a common problem in the world..and around headfi. I have heard many clones of the RA1 and none get close the tubey sounding class that the RA-1 provides...and although not the best amp out there for everyone's taste..it is an outstanding little amp for the money. Zanth hit it on the head with his post just above mine...
__________________ Last four LP's acquired
The Black Angels ' passover ' 1st pressing
Black Rebel Motorcycle Club ' BRMC ' UK ' 1st pressing
Racanteurs ' Cosolers of the Lonely ' 180G 2LP '1st pressing
Ween ' Pure Guava ' 180G Direct Tape Master ' Reissue
Behind closed eyelids. In very many cases, the visionary quality, the quality of the vision so to say, spills over, into the external world, so that the experiencer, when he opens his eyes, sees the outer world transfigured
quite a while since we visited this thread My last post was in Sept
Anyhow, the point isn't the circuit layout exactly but the fact that the opamp was novel. In fact, if one examines the history (Rickcr42 has written about this the best and actually reiterated it just recently in Pink Floyd's drama thread) the opamp was the key to the design. This was a little known opamp that just happened to have wonderful current output and sounded great with Grados. No one knows how long they spent on this or how many opamps they tried, but the fact is..this opamp is/was the key and as such, this is the reason so many want RA-1 clones vs. a CMOY. R&D plays a part and why should Grado's hard work be ripped off easily? Ray's portable amps are also dead simple, text-book circuits, but with him covering his opamps it is a "hey, figure things for yourself!" remark to those that just want to come in and make knock-offs for profit.
From what I understand about SET circuits (or well, tube circuits in general) there are only a handful of possible configurations and then the rest is just swapping in parts and or tweaking things here or there. So why do some tube amps cost $1k and others 350000 if the circuits are everywhere! Obviously people are willing to pay for craftsmenship, reliability, warranty as well as good sound. There are those that claim all amps sound the same, tube or ss. Hey, whatever floats your boat, I don't feel that way nor do a good plenty of folks. For those that do hear a difference, why is it that an amp with the same circuit similar parts but made by different companies sound different? Seems the reasoning used there is easily applicable to the case of the RA-1. You may not agree, you may not think there is a difference in the sound, but certainly that is not the concensus on the forums.
Obviously something is going on. For those that want the magic of the RA-1 with the Grados, they get that by buying the RA-1. The choice is up to the individual. No one is forced to buy and as for the cost to profit ratio, Grado makes a heck of a lto less on their amp than most do around here. The RA-1 is not the simplest circuit either (though it is pretty close!) and yet other manufacturers don't take nearly the same heat. Grado seems to be a target and this stems from a time when the RA-1 was the only real amp for Grados and it continues on today, despite there being a whole whack of manufacturers who not only make a similar or even more basic circuit but charge more, make more and enjoy no flack from the community.
With the plethora of amp choices available now, I honestly don't know why so many fuss about an amp that is 10 years old now? Grado does not advertize, folks buy it either on the recommendation of their dealers or from online suggestions. If they end up buying and they enjoy it, who is to judge them? Move on...move on folks, life is too short.
but see your not listening to what i am saying, i am not attacking the amp or grado or the price of the RA-1 or anything like that...
i am saying, that being angered that someone copies "your design" when the design is the same design as everyone else is just silly...
if people are advertising something as an "RA-1 clone" there is obviously an issue there... but then it would be a fair statment to say that the hornet is an RA-1 clone, or any CMOY is an RA-1 clone... becuase fundamentally it is...
why do most RA-1 clones not sound like the RA-1... well, who knows, i would imagine most people assume that JRC chip they use must be crap since it costs like $1... but maybe you are right, that that opamp just sounds right with the grados... or maybe its just the sound people have come to accept from it...
either way thats all i was saying...
and the drama of the RA-1 i think is what happens when they realize they paid a lot of money for a little of something... they feel ripped off and scammed... maybe if it had a nice neat pcb and a whole bunch of other random ic's and parts that arnt even part of the cirucit it would make people feel better... but paying $400 for that and seeing whats in it after you take it apart... i know i would be pretty angry since $400 is no small sum for me... heck i built my dynamight for $500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiofiler
yeah that seems to be a common problem in the world..and around headfi. I have heard many clones of the RA1 and none get close the tubey sounding class that the RA-1 provides...and although not the best amp out there for everyone's taste..it is an outstanding little amp for the money. Zanth hit it on the head with his post just above mine...
Uhh No. Not what I said or meant, but was a joke nonetheless!!
__________________ Last four LP's acquired
The Black Angels ' passover ' 1st pressing
Black Rebel Motorcycle Club ' BRMC ' UK ' 1st pressing
Racanteurs ' Cosolers of the Lonely ' 180G 2LP '1st pressing
Ween ' Pure Guava ' 180G Direct Tape Master ' Reissue
Behind closed eyelids. In very many cases, the visionary quality, the quality of the vision so to say, spills over, into the external world, so that the experiencer, when he opens his eyes, sees the outer world transfigured
Moderator Headphoneus Supremus: Moderator and SHAman who knew of Head-Fi ten years prior to its existence
I think you and I are on the same page flecom, it comes down to simply that if the use of a particular opamp was the key and that key really had a magic with the company phones...then broadcasting would enable anyone to go out and build it for themselves.
No one was using this opamp before the RA-1 was dissected. Interesting now isn't it, considering the avid DIY community at Headwize at the time? Yet, so many claimed the RA-1 sounded better than the CMOY's being built at the time. Why?
Must be the opamp if everything else is the same!
So, if sales started to drop off because some guy opened up the RA-1, figured out the lucky ticket was the opamp used...and subsequently started building amps around that opamp, then yeah...why wouldn't someone be miffed about that? Grado was the one that figured out that this opamp worked wonders with their phones. Now someone else can indeed, build an amp using this basic circuit (and for those that believe more complex = better, they have another thing coming, many MANY folks believe that less is more in audio) but using the up til this point, undiscovered opamp.
Uhh No. Not what I said or meant, but was a joke nonetheless!!
sorry then
unfortunately text is a poor medium for expressing tones
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanth
I think you and I are on the same page flecom, it comes down to simply that if the use of a particular opamp was the key and that key really had a magic with the company phones...then broadcasting would enable anyone to go out and build it for themselves.
No one was using this opamp before the RA-1 was dissected. Interesting now isn't it, considering the avid DIY community at Headwize at the time? Yet, so many claimed the RA-1 sounded better than the CMOY's being built at the time. Why?
Must be the opamp if everything else is the same!
So, if sales started to drop off because some guy opened up the RA-1, figured out the lucky ticket was the opamp used...and subsequently started building amps around that opamp, then yeah...why wouldn't someone be miffed about that? Grado was the one that figured out that this opamp worked wonders with their phones. Now someone else can indeed, build an amp using this basic circuit (and for those that believe more complex = better, they have another thing coming, many MANY folks believe that less is more in audio) but using the up til this point, undiscovered opamp.
I agree that simple is good, but even the build quality of the RA-1 is ok at best... have you seen photos of the PCB and such? anyhow... i stand by the opinion that i had when the whole hornet drama was going on, similar to the RA-1 drama... does it sound good? yes? does it sound like it would be worth $x? then who cares what is in it?
but still, he cant claim anyone really copied him... i am sure some other manufacturer put that opamp in an audio path or headphone section of some integrated amp before he started using it... and that was my whole point... if he really wanted a truly unique design then he should have either
1) designed his own op-amp IC
2) made a discrete amp of his own design
or at the very least sanded off the top of the IC similar to what ray does...
My last post was in Sept 
Linear Mode
