An Interview With John Grado

[Zanth]

Originally Posted by sahwnfras

Does John sell Grados straight outta the house. If you dont know what i mean, im talking about if i would be able to goto the Grado house and buy a pair there.

As far as I know...no. I believe many of the NY members could answer this, they have been there.

[Wmcmanus]

Originally Posted by sahwnfras

Does John sell Grados straight outta the house. If you dont know what i mean, im talking about if i would be able to goto the Grado house and buy a pair there.

No, it's not actually a house, and even if it were, I'm quite sure there would be no retail sales going on there. The Grado Labs facility in Brooklyn was at one point in time a family "residence" but it has long since been converted into a rather humble, unmarked business location where housings are made and headphones are assembled. Grado headphones are sold only through the dealer network.

[mikeg]

Since 18 brand new HE90's are now going for $5K each, I think that the HEV90 amp isn't worth $10K. I think that several great electrostat amps are available for a fraction of that price.

Originally Posted by Zanth

$15kish USD.

[mikeg]

Although I've not heard an HE90, I'm influenced by the opinions of some Head-Fi members whose opinions I respect; e.g., wmcmanus, agile_one, and gsferrari. These people, as well as other members that I respect, own or have extensively listened to most leading headphones, and expressed their opinions that the HE90 is the best headphone. It's as a consequence of their judgement, that I draw my conclusion regarding this headphone. BTW, I hope that the development of a headphone that equals the performance of the HE90 will not require an excessive amount of research expenditures. My reason for thinking this is that the design and construction of the HE90 can be carefully studied by a competent manufacturer (e.g., in China), and then it should be possible to closely duplicate its design and construction. I think that this is called reverse engineering. In any case, since the Chinese have successfully duplicated many of the West's rocket, computer, and weapons technology, it should be fairly easy for some Chinese firm to do the same with the 20+ year-old technology of the HE90. Needless to say, an American firm such as Grado, or another such firm, could readily subcontract the job to such a Chinese firm, which I assume will cost a great deal less. I also think that a great deal of Sennheiser's development cost went into the HEV90 amp. Although this may have been necessary 20 years ago, this development expense is no longer needed, since there are now quite a number of electrostatic headphone amps available that can drive an HE90, or equivalent. So, although I realize that a small company may be taking a risk in developing and marketing such a superior headphone, I don't think that the risk is nearly as great as you consider it to be.

Originally Posted by Zanth

300 or so "lucky" HE90 owners. 300 over 20 years. In 2002, Sennheiser started dumping the remaining rigs down to a rumored 50% off (that was the apparent price in Canada anyway, phones and amp). It didn't matter that Sennheiser thought they had created the best product in the world, few agreed with them, and fewer still could afford it. Heck, even Tyll felt that the HD650/Blockhead was at least on par with the Big O! Many many MANY people agreed. A lot of times people get caught up in the "moment" and are not necessarily honest with themselves etc. Just recently HE60's have been said to be 90-95% of the HE90's yet for years the HE60's were considered crap next to the HE90 and SR 007. Why then when a few courageous fellows pronounced: "I sure wouldn't drop the cash on the HE90's when the HE60's do it nearly as well for 1/8th the price!" Did more folks begin to nod and agree? That poll isn't necessarily indicative of anything except that those that did vote feel a certain way, without perhaps hearing all of the phones...any of the phones, one or any in their own system, for an extended period of time etc etc. It is well known that one does not get accustomed to a product until after a good while. There may be an odd product that truly does bowl one over and no one can dispute it as king, but these are very very rare, and the HE90/Big O does not fit that category simply because there is not even a hint of a general consensus. 33% or whatever it is is hardly earth shattering. Of this 33%, how many have heard it for an hour straight? I bet less than 10%. How many times have I read that to understand the greatness of the R10's, one needs to live with them for a time...few have done this. Fewer have done this and felt they were not all that special. I guarantee that a whole lot of people would not choose the Big O as the best if they had the other "great combos" on hand for an extended time. Much of it is hype, though I don't dimiss the claims outright, but far too much is hype without any experience.

Now if someone like Wmcmanus or Jatinder chimed in stating...well after owning everything I've definitively decided that the Big O (not just the HE90's) are in fact the best for me...then I may turn my head and focus in on those words. But even they don't decree it outright, (in fact I believe both feel that the R10's are more enjoyable and use them more).

So then we have John...he goes out, does the R&D, builds a "Statement Product" charges 3.5k as you say, has 300 made, and ooops...some like it, and think it is the best ever...others don't. OH NO!!! Who to believe? Well, how many are going to try it at 3.5k? Not many, not right away anyway. So how is he to recoup his costs? By jacking up the prices of his other phones? Great...screw the other guys. Or he can wait 20 years and sell them off bit by bit because of a small cult following and the rumors that it is the best ever. But wait! Tyll over at Headroom still believes the HD700's with the New New Maxed out Max is better! Or what about those Beyer 1010's? Or the "straight to your temporal lobe" Sony contraptions? Now what? well, at least John has some shelf space for his creation...


The problem is that with a Statement product, in order to do it with complete security, I'm assuming John would need to have preorders to ensure he doesn't lose his shirt. Remember...small company, not MASSIVE company like Sennheiser or Sony. If they decide to pump in 2 million into R&D just for kicks, they can without blinking. If John does...well that is a whole other ball of wax. Should he feel pressured to do so just because some say the Big O is the best in the world? For what reason? I'm really just not seeing the logic at all. but that is just me.

[Zanth]

John would never do the reverse engineering thing, I'm pretty certain of this simply examine his reaction to the RA-1 cloning. He would do it from scratch I assume. Also, electrostats are not the be all and end all. He doesn't think electrostats were all that, hence his thought on doing a hybrid, because electros simply can't do somethings as well as dynamics etc.

That said, maybe my value was too high, I have no idea what it would cost, just throwing a price out there. What would likely happen woudl be some type of outsourcing to an electrostat company. Stax used one I believe for the Omega I's, or was it that the only one they built in house was Omega I? Anyhow, there are of course companies that exist that collaboration could happen with, just that I don't think it is what John wants at this time.

I'm with you though, I want the best that is possible, the HE90's are not the best for me, not if the HE60's are 90-95% of their sound. The R10's aren't it either, but these phones have a quickness about them, and an articulation that although at times unnatural is exciting for me at times as well, but an ultimate phone for me personally would be a near amalgamation of the HP1, RS1, PS1 and R10.

[rsaavedra]

Originally Posted by mikeg

I hope that the development of a headphone that equals the performance of the HE90 will not require an excessive amount of research expenditures. My reason for thinking this is that the design and construction of the HE90 can be carefully studied by a competent manufacturer (e.g., in China), and then it should be possible to closely duplicate its design and construction. I think that this is called reverse engineering.

Even if after 20 years it might be "technically" ethical to attempt to reverse engineer some product and then sell the result under another brand, I wonder if that would match personal ethics and integrity. Also, the pride of authentic authorship and truly original invention is an important element in the practice of engineering, as in any other creative discipline. No reverse engineering challenge can give that personal reward. Imho, it's not even very respectful to ask a creative mind to reverse engineer some other creative mind's work. That is probably a romantic take, but I just wanted to write my own comments on that suggestion to reverse engineer the Orpheus.

[mikeg]

John's objection to the cloning of his RA-1 is understandable, and reasonable. I bought an RA-1, even though I knew about such clones. I did this because: 1) I didn't trust that a clone performed as well; and 2) because I considered it unconscionable to buy a cheaper clone (i.e., a forgery) of a product that was still being marketed by it's manufacturer. The situation with the HE90 is different, however. Sennheiser has loudly and repeatedly declared that they will never market this headphone again. So, what I've proposed for reverse engineering is a 20+ year-old dead product. Since Sennheiser says that no more will ever be made, what's the problem with making a similar, but less expensive one? As for John not wanting to do this, lets hope that one or more other manufacturers will be willing to do so. Finally, as for the possibility of Grado producing a hybrid headphone, perhaps they can reverse engineer another long-dead product; i.e. the AKG K340. IMHO, contracting out reverse engineering to a Chinese source would absolutely minimize any and all development costs, thereby removing this excuse, and thereby providing our Head-Fi community with the possibility of purchasing some *modern* outstanding headphones, at a relatively reasonable price. I still hope that John is reading the postings in this thread.

Originally Posted by Zanth

John would never do the reverse engineering thing, I'm pretty certain of this simply examine his reaction to the RA-1 cloning. He would do it from scratch I assume. Also, electrostats are not the be all and end all. He doesn't think electrostats were all that, hence his thought on doing a hybrid, because electros simply can't do somethings as well as dynamics etc.

That said, maybe my value was too high, I have no idea what it would cost, just throwing a price out there. What would likely happen woudl be some type of outsourcing to an electrostat company. Stax used one I believe for the Omega I's, or was it that the only one they built in house was Omega I? Anyhow, there are of course companies that exist that collaboration could happen with, just that I don't think it is what John wants at this time.

I'm with you though, I want the best that is possible, the HE90's are not the best for me, not if the HE60's are 90-95% of their sound. The R10's aren't it either, but these phones have a quickness about them, and an articulation that although at times unnatural is exciting for me at times as well, but an ultimate phone for me personally would be a near amalgamation of the HP1, RS1, PS1 and R10.

[adhoc]

that was an EXCELLENT write-up Zanth!

As I look at my RS-1s now, and think that John Grado himself couldve been personally involved in its construction, I cant help but feel (very) loved.

All you Senn/AKG/Beyer fans, try to beat that!

[Wmcmanus]

Mike, I know that you're excited about the possibilities for better and cheaper headphones in the future, but as Jason has said, an HE-90 type of headphone (pure electrostat) is very unlikely to come from Grado Labs. It's just not in the picture. In fact, I remember talking with John about this myself when I was at one of the NY meets that he hosted. I specifically asked him about the possibility of building an HE-90 or Omega II type of electrostat, and mentioned that I thought the RS-1 came as close as any dynamic headphones at reaching that sort of treble excitement and clarity, and his response was basically "not our market." I was quite impressed by this and just let the moment pass. He's heard all of the "best" headphones and is happy with what his company is doing. All of the products in the current Grado lineup are well positioned and competitive at their price points.

To tell you the truth, I don't blame him one bit. Electrostats/planers/ribbons have never been an easy market to sell in the high end "speaker world" and it would be even harder to do much damage to Stax in the high end headphones market (Stax is VERY well reputed among audiophiles, and has decades of experience behind them). Many companies have tried, and most have failed, or at least have died out after a long struggle. Magenpan and Martin Logan seem to be surviving in the long run, but the likes of Sound Labs and Newform Research seem to be struggling (not to mention Quad). So if there is such little space for speaker manufacturers in this sub-segment of an already limited (high end) marketplace for speakers, then what kind of volume could you hope to achieve with headphones? The market research would likely begin and end by looking at how Stax has struggled (despite their excellent reputation, they've had a TON of product failures over the years).

To invest valuable time, energy and capital into an area with an extremely limited marketplace, just doesn't make sense if you are John Grado. This is a company that has been around for 50 years, but yet has no experience whatsoever in the murky waters of electrostats. Why start now when you're finally at a point where you can watch the company that you've invested your life's work in crank out the product with cash cows such as the SR-60 and RS-1, etc. John strikes me as a very practical businessman, and one who has no false aspirations of setting the world on fire at this point in his life.

I'm not saying it won't or can't be done (i.e., an HE-90 quality electrostat for $3,500 or less), but I don't think it's realistic to expect a company the size of Grado Labs to take on this challenge. Given the current success of Grado's product line, the history of the company as a makers dynamic headphones only, and John's stated objectives, I'd be shocked if (by reading this thread or otherwise), he decided to switch gears and go into electrostats. The ONLY way this might make sense is if he wanted to develop a product line that would compete with Stax from top to bottom.

The better company to ask this question of would be Stax, but I suspect that there answer would be that an Omega III would do nothing but destroy the market they already enjoy for Omega II (a very successful product by all accounts, especially in the last couple of years).

[adhoc]

interesting anecdote: how many people out there know that stax has been around since 1938?