Dynamic vs. Electrostatic

[sp1N]

I've been reading the forums a lot lately and I've also done a fair amount of homework. But I'm curious. What are the main differences between dynamic and electrostatic headphones and why do the latter cost so rediculously much?

[taymat]

Originally Posted by sp1N

I've been reading the forums a lot lately and I've also done a fair amount of homework. But I'm curious. What are the main differences between dynamic and electrostatic headphones and why do the latter cost so rediculously much?

USE GOOGLE!!! I just typed in 'electrostatic speakers how they work' into it and bingo: http://stuffo.howstuffworks.com/speaker11.htm or you can start from the start: http://stuffo.howstuffworks.com/speaker.htm
Typically electrostatic headphones cost more because they are a niche product requiring different production lines, etc that cost a lot of money to implement. To many companies (especially in Asia) whats the point of making 10 headphones a week on a new production line when you can make 100 on an existing one.
As well as this most consumers want lots of bass, and they don't care about the sound quality much. Dynamic headphones are the best headphones for bass and provide much more for much less cash.
Then there's R+D costs. To make a new pair of electrostatic headphones requires a lot of cash to research, design and test. Why bother doing that when you can simply build on what knowledge you've got already within the company or outside of it.
Stax headphones cost a lot more because although they've paid off R+D costs by now the materials costs are far higher than other manufacturers, this is because they have relatively few customers. I'd imagine that Stax make all parts in house, and that means costs go up because of economies of scale. Also Stax, like Mercedes, have a great image and brand name. Ask any audiophile from years ago to now who make the highest quality headphones and most will say Stax. This means they can also charge a premium price based mainly on reputation. There are probably things I've missed here, but these are just basic ideas off the top of my head.

[setmenu]

Another reason for the electrostats higher cost is that most are supplied
with their own dedicated amplifier, reason being that the electrostatic driver
needs many hundreds of volts to drive it and cannot simply be plugged into
a convenient 'outlet'.
The price of Stax lamda phones on their own is not wildly expensive compared to top of the range dynamic phones.
In fact once one considers the cost of a top flight amp to drive a pair of
high quality dynamic phones the price difference can disappear.

As for sound quality both types can provide top grade performance, the rest
is down to personal preference.

Myself, I am an unrepentant Stax user but love all types of quality audio
kit

If you can, try to audition some electrostats, but lock the wallet!!


Setmenu

[sp1N]

Originally Posted by taymat

USE GOOGLE!!!

Whoa, easy there killer. I asked here cause I knew that someone here could give me the technical details as well as sonic difference details. Very interesting though on the difference.

In speaking of the different electrostatic cans, I don't think I've ever heard of any other brands or models.

[fyrfytrhoges]

one word: accuracy!

[saint.panda]

You may find these links to be useful.

"Sennheiser HD650 --> Stax Omega II: What should I expect?"
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=64891
"Review: KGSS and Stax Omega II" (by the same poster as in the previous thread)
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=74014
"a VERY one-sided review: Stax Omega II vs Sony CD3K"
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=49013
Professional Stax 3030/4040 review with references to the AKG K1000
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/stax/stax.html
Sennheiser HD650 vs. Stax 2020 Basic System: a comparison
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=82862
"Stax basic system II vs. hd-580 review"
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=85584
Omega II review with references to the Grado HP-1
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue12/staxomega.htm
"Do electrostatics have enough bass?????"
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showt...ht=carlo+omega

There seem to a few issues (e.g. the bass) which the confronting parties are separated on. So hearing them for yourselves might be the best solution. However, I suppose mental burn-in plays a major role due to the fundamental differences between dynamic and electrstatic headphones. Therefore a 5 minute audition might not be sufficient.
I have previously uttered my opinions on this topic (based on 10 minute auditions), which have to be taken with a big grain of salt. In any case, from what I heard for myself I would say that with electrostats the sound is "just there" as if moving air is not a requirement for electrstatic sound reproduction. Scientifically not correct but I really had the impression that electrostats transported the music to my ears with complete effortlessness. On the other hand, I missed some of the dynamic punch which my Sennheiser offer me.

About the price: Many consider the Stax 3030 and 4040 to be relative bargains. A Stax 3030 system (headphones and amp) can be had for around $700 used whereas the HD 650 is about $300 for the headphone only. However, you'll still have to buy an amp for the HD 650 and you'll find that $400 is by many only considered as a mid-level amp for the Hd 650.

[Nak Man]

Originally Posted by sp1N

Whoa, easy there killer. I asked here cause I knew that someone here could give me the technical details as well as sonic difference details. Very interesting though on the difference.

In speaking of the different electrostatic cans, I don't think I've ever heard of any other brands or models.

Honestly I find it easier to read reviews on various e-mags such as onhifi, soundstage, 6moon etc.

They put it like this with writing ability that very few headfiers can match:

These are quite different from typical headphone diaphragms and deserve an explanatory note. In an electrostatic speaker, a thin electrically-charged conductive membrane is suspended between two stators -- fixed electrodes whose value changes from positive to negative with variations in the musical signal. The membrane is alternately attracted to and repelled by the stators' changing charges. Since the membrane can be very thin, it is amazingly responsive -- and the thinner the membrane the more easily it is moved. The SRS-404 features Stax's thinnest membrane yet -- a scant 1.35µ, which is substantially lighter than the air it displaces.

Senn and koss used to make electrostats. BTW I saw THD figure for Orpheus is comparable to hd650. Interestingly I can't find THD specs for stax phones.

[catscratch]

I don't think electrostatics are all that expensive at all. A Stax SR-3030 will run you $779 from audiocubes, but that includes the amp already. A comprable HD650 + (insert good amp here) will run you much, much more than that, and in my opinion, almost any dynamic system that you could get for $800 will be worse in overall quality (ok, just speculating, so hold on to your flame guns here ). You have to understand, there are basically no cheap, bad-sounding electrostatic headphones (new ones, at any rate). The Stax SR-001 Mk II is the cheapest electrostatic I could find, and it sounds superb. Considering I spend $239 on it ($300 with power supply), I can't see any headphone + amp combo that will even come close to the sonic performance in this price range.

As to the sonic differences:

When listening to dynamic headphones, I can literally feel the cone drivers pushing air into my eardrums. I can feel that there is a system on the other end that's playing music - as if there is some intermediate step between the music and my ears. This can be both good and bad, as it is both exhilarating to hear fast, hard bassy music blasted with crisp clarity and overwhelming force straight into your ear - but you also cannot fully get close to the "live" sound (I'm not talking about mega $$$ systems here, just your "typical" dynamics vs. electrostatics), since you're always aware that there is a system that's playing music.

With electrostatics, though, there is no system - there's only the music. It seems to originate spontaneously out of thin air, and it is perfect, almost crystalline in it's transparency and clarity. It may not sound perfect - it may have less bass/treble or whatever, it may have colorations, but it does sound flawless - there's no distortion of any kind whatsoever until you really start cranking it up or messing with the EQ (and even then, your ears will give out before the headphones will). The music seems to have more space in between each individual instrument, and instead of blending layers of sound together to create a sort of sea-of-sound that dynamic setups do, you have precisely spatially localized, individual instruments or layers of sound coming at you from different directions. This doesn't mean that electrostatics are any less "ambient," whatever that means, than dynamics - they just present music in a very different way. However, this seemingly system-less presentation of music comes at a cost - tactile feedback. Electrostatics are notoriously lacking in tactile feedback, as there's very little feeling of air moving against your eardrums. That doesn't mean that they don't have bass - well-build electrostatics have plenty of bass, usually better controlled, resolved, and deeper than dynamics - but all of it is of the audible variety. It's strange, hearing bass and not feeling it, and it does take some getting used to.

So, which is better? I can't say. I prefer electrostatic sound, but I'm more into classical/ambient new-age, which needs transparent, spatially localized sound above everything else. But, I'm also a part-time basshead, which is why I'm keeping my Sennheiser HD590's (they're also a killer gaming can).

Listening to well-produced psytrance on my HD590's, I spaz out, and start dancing around like a maniac, sometimes for hours on end (of course, nothing next to an actual trance party, but that's a different story). However, listening to the same trance on electrostatics, I space out, getting lost in between layers and layers of samples and effects, all of which are revealed to me in their crystalline purity. It's a different effect entirely, and I can't honestly say which I prefer.

I'd like to discourage one myth though: that electrostatics are good only for classical and acoustic music. From personal experience, I'd say that quite on the contrary, electrostatics sound better than dynamics with more types of music than the other way around. For genres where tactile feedback is a must - like minimal psytrance or drum'n'bass, you definitely need a dynamic setup. But for everything else, I prefer electrostats - even for things like black metal, where, despite the usually horrible production, the fast handling of transients and superb layer separation of electrostatics makes them sound better than dynamic headphones. Also, they're usually less fatiguing.

I'd definitely love to hear the Qualia 010, especially if it really can provide electrostatic-level transparency with dynamic tactile impact.

P.S. Less than a week until my 3030 gets here. Damnit, I can't wait...

[NuTT98]

The process for creating the super-thin transducer on electrostats is probably a large factor of the cost.

Personally, I've always though electrostatic headphones have more potential than dynamics (superior if you will ). And before I've been informed of the existence of Stax, I did not think there were any at that price range. Much less any that use solid state amplifiers. I almost bought some DT880s

This ofcourse is just purely headphones, as I don't share the same beliefs for electrostatic speakers. Reason #1 being the lack of bass reproduction, which requires a dynamic driver, somewhat defying the point of electrostats. And reason #2 being the rear wave, which generally cannot be blocked, and has significant consequences being dipolar.

Dynamic headphones have exaggerated bass response. In fact I don't think I've seen a single pair that does not. Some people might like this, good for them, but I can't stand it. Even a 4dB bass boost beyond the theoretical flat response sounds completely out of place to my ears, and the typical 10dB+ found in many headphones would be far beyond acceptable. Staxes have little short of perfect bass. Just right in volume, instant attack and decay. They leave nothing to be desired. The ultra high resolution and especially the lack of coloration made them especially desireable to me. I knew I wouldn't have liked the equalization the DT880s and just about anything else would have required.

Having the 3030s, the only thing I could possibly upgrade to is a better set of electrostatics. Dynamics are probably out of question for me for all eternity at this point.

[fmplautus]

The akg K1000 is one dynamic headphone that is radically different than any other headphone in the world. It more than holds its own against the best of the Stax, and does what no other conventional headphone can do electrostatic or dynamic -- let your outer ear do its thing!

It also has the advantage of being able run off a conventional amplifier or receiver like a pair of speakers. All in all it is a freak of nature and a small miracle that an AKG team was given rein to build such a pair of headphones. They sell for around $750 these days from what I read. You do need an amp though, and be prepared for comments on your appearance.

[doobooloo]

In fact I don't think I've seen a single pair that does not.

Have you tried the K501s?

[catscratch]

Originally Posted by fmplautus

The akg K1000 is one dynamic headphone that is radically different than any other headphone in the world. It more than holds its own against the best of the Stax, and does what no other conventional headphone can do electrostatic or dynamic -- let your outer ear do its thing!

It also has the advantage of being able run off a conventional amplifier or receiver like a pair of speakers. All in all it is a freak of nature and a small miracle that an AKG team was given rein to build such a pair of headphones. They sell for around $750 these days from what I read. You do need an amp though, and be prepared for comments on your appearance.

Yes, if there is one pair of dynamics that I would love to get, in a reasonable price range, it would be these. The promise of enormous soundstage and vibrant dynamics is very appealing, especially with certain kinds of music. I guess I'll have to use a subwoofer to compensate for the lack of bass - which would be an interesting listening experience. Unfortunately, I don't have the cash for both this and the 3030, not to mention the high-powered amp that these require, although if it is true that they can work well off the T-amp, then you can scratch that last part

But, whatever the case, the Staxes are one tough customer, and I don't think you can easily beat them at the price.

[Elec]

This is a pretty interesting issue, and one I'm not really sure about myself. At some point, I'd like to get a pair of HD-650s. The thing is, a lot of people around here talk like the 650s are useless without a Zu cable and at least a $500 amp. That could also put you firmly in Stax territory as far as pricing goes. I'd be tempted to go for a 3030 system instead of the Senns except for a few things. One is that it's really hard to find Stax to audition, so it's kind of a buy it, hope you like it, if not then sell it along at hopefully a small loss situation. Another is that the Stax have a larger cost up front, since you need the phones and energiser to use them. I have an amp, albeit not a great one, so it would be plausible to buy 650s now, and then add a better cable or amp (or both) later.

The last reason is simply that I know I'd like the Senns but can't be sure about a pair of Stax. I've had Sennheiser HD-545s for several years and think they're great. I like the Senn flavor, and a brief listen to 650s (and 600s) is enough to know that they're simply more-of-same. I spent probably 20 minutes with a pair of Omega2s at the last Chicago meet. They were very interesting, but there's no way I could say how I'd like them (or the lesser Stax) over a period of time.

[minya]

I think catscratch just offered up the best dynamic vs. electrostat comparison I've ever read (post #8). That's exactly how I feel. Thank you, catscratch.

I have very sensitive hearing. I can both hear (and feel) the drivers in dynamic headphones thumping and pushing air against my ear. Sometimes, on very bassy music, it becomes painful. I don't like that.

With electrostats, I don't feel any of that. I just hear it. The bass is deep -- deeper than on every dynamic headphone I've tried -- but you don't feel it. You just hear it.

For my ears, electrostatics are far, far superior. I can't really ever go back to dynamic headphones full-time (I still use dynamics portably).

If you ask me, the Stax SR-404 + SRM-313 amp combination (runs you about $850 USD at current exchange rate) is by FAR, FAR, FAR the best deal in headphonedom. Ever.

But that's just, like, uh, my opinion, man.

- Chris

[aerius]

To paraphrase Steve Deckert of Decware fame, there's basically 3 types of headphones.

Type A 'phones which you can't hear (completely transparent, pass everything straight through)

Type B 'phones which make everything sound better

Type C 'phones which make everything sound worse.

Going by that definition, electrostatic headphones fall into Type A, while dynamic one are Type B or C depending on your tastes & priorities. To elaborate, some people prefer a warmer sound instead of the neutral sound of electrostatics, so they might choose say, a Grado 225. For those people, dynamics are a Type B 'phone since it makes things sound better to them. Others want to hear the music without those colourations, so for them the more coloured dynamic 'phones make things sound worse than the neutral electrostatics, thus dynamics are Type C's to them.