Does Beyer make a headphone that's less "forward"?

[mike1127]

I own the Beyer DT880 and have also heard the DT990. I love the beauty of timbre you get from the Beyers, but I find that the bass is too full and the perspective is too "forward." I feel like I'm sitting in the middle of the orchestra instead of in front of it, and there is less spaciousness. I prefer a more neutral perspective. Is there a Beyer that is less forward?

Second question: has anyone heard both the AKG K271 and the K501? Is the K271 similar to the K501? I own the K501, but might benefit from the closed-back K271, because my listening environment is not completely silent.

Thanks,
Mike

[Nick 214]

What version of the 880 are you using? (Year and impedance)

NK

[mike1127]

I bought them around 2005 I think. I don't know the impedance for sure, but I think it's the lower impedance version. Don North brought over his 600-ohm DT 880 yesterday and it sounded forward, too.

It seems to be part of the design philosophy of Beyerdynamics to be forward and very full in the bass, but I wonder if there is one that is less so.

Note: I've also heard the DT990 and it's a bit more spacious than the DT880 I think, but still the basic sound.

[Zombie_X]

The older models seemed to be a little less forward to me, but not by much IMO.

[scytheavatar]

The beyers generally are known for good soundstage and recessed mids, while the DT880's presentation is a bit on the cold side, so I am not sure how you can perceive them as being too forward. You already have the K501, so isn't it what you are looking for?

[Donald North]

I would not say beyers are known for having recessed mids - quite the opposite in my opinion. The DT880 2005/250 ohm do sound a bit reserved - prim and proper. Bass and treble sound restrained. The DT880 2005/600 ohm even more so.

The DT990 2005/600 ohm sound more engaging overall with better bass and treble.

[mike1127]

Originally Posted by scytheavatar

The beyers generally are known for good soundstage and recessed mids, while the DT880's presentation is a bit on the cold side, so I am not sure how you can perceive them as being too forward. You already have the K501, so isn't it what you are looking for?

Can you give us some kind of context for this statement? All the Beyers I've heard are warm and very full in the lower mids/upper bass. I wonder what you are listening to that makes them seem "recessed."

My own context is: I listen mostly to classical music and have heard Beyer, AKG, and Sennheiser headphones.

After more listening, I think the K501 just isn't high-enough resolution for me. I think the case or diaphragm suffers from uncontrolled resonant modes---nothing bad, but enough to sacrifice the resolution I want.

If you compare the DT880 to the K601, the DT880 is very far forward, like sitting in the middle of the musicians, while the K601 sounds more like sitting in the audience. I like the latter because it gives me a chance to choose where to put my attention and gives a better perspective on a live performance in a resonant hall.

Someone who listens to studio rock music may have a completely different opinion---there is no original acoustic image in that case, so it's hard to say what "forward" or "audience-level" means.

-Mike

[rhythmdevils]

so when you say "forward" you are just talking about soundstage? Because to me, that term has nothing to do with soundstage. I consider the DT880 and grados to both be forward sounding phones, and they have very different soundstage. Its a tonal reference.

The K271 and K501 are different animals, although they both have typically gorgeous AKG mids (despite different flavors). The K271 comes from AKg's studio line, and is closed whereas the K501 is the "audiophile" line, and open. K501 is more airy, and the K271 has more body, beyond that I would have to do a direct comparison

[AmanGeorge]

You like the K501, want excellent timbre, laid back presentation, and less bass than a Beyer...

Sounds like a case for K701s, if you ask me...

[mike1127]

Originally Posted by rhythmdevils

so when you say "forward" you are just talking about soundstage? Because to me, that term has nothing to do with soundstage. I consider the DT880 and grados to both be forward sounding phones, and they have very different soundstage. Its a tonal reference.

I'm talking about how close the instruments seem, which is a psychological effect emerging from tonal balance, headstaging, and the direct/reflected sound ratio (as one perceives through the headphone; obviously the headphone can't change what the microphones heard). Technically it probably emerges from the frequency response curve; I would expect a forward headphone to have stronger mids and less highs. It would have a stronger signal in the regions of the spectrum that signal to we human animals that a sound is near us; while the K601 has a stronger signal in the regions of the spectrum that signal to our brains "this is a reflected sound." But primarily it's the psychological effect---what you experience during listening---that I'm talking about. I can't claim to know the frequency response curve of each headphone, but I describe the experience of each.

As I've said, listening to something other than minimally-miked acoustic music could turn this picture on its head, because in that case things like reverberation and soundstaging happen through different mechanisms.


-Mike

[scytheavatar]

Originally Posted by mike1127

Can you give us some kind of context for this statement? All the Beyers I've heard are warm and very full in the lower mids/upper bass. I wonder what you are listening to that makes them seem "recessed."

My own context is: I listen mostly to classical music and have heard Beyer, AKG, and Sennheiser headphones.

After more listening, I think the K501 just isn't high-enough resolution for me. I think the case or diaphragm suffers from uncontrolled resonant modes---nothing bad, but enough to sacrifice the resolution I want.

If you compare the DT880 to the K601, the DT880 is very far forward, like sitting in the middle of the musicians, while the K601 sounds more like sitting in the audience. I like the latter because it gives me a chance to choose where to put my attention and gives a better perspective on a live performance in a resonant hall.

Someone who listens to studio rock music may have a completely different opinion---there is no original acoustic image in that case, so it's hard to say what "forward" or "audience-level" means.

-Mike

If you are looking for an upgrade to the K501 in terms of resolution you definetely should take a look at the K701... the DT880 and K501 both pale in comparision to it, especially for classical music. To my ears the DT880 certainly has recessed mids, its mids are thin, soft and weak in comparision to something like the Grados or ATHs, so even if you disagree with me I am not sure how you can come to the conclusion that its mids are "too forward".

[CDBacklash]

The DT880 was pretty balanced to my ears from when I heard it quickly (only about half an hour... but planning to buy one as soon as I have the funds), although I wouldn't exactly call it forward. It's definitely far less smooth than the HD600, though.
In fact, it has mids very comparable to the HD650 on paper (and to a lesser extent the 600 because of that spike) and IMO to the ears as well.
The 880 gets a lot of bad-wrap around here for a reason I am not sure... They are frequently called bright and as having recessed mids when they sound more neutral (and look more neutral on paper) than the other popular headphones of its class - the 701, 600 and 650 which have a bass rolloff and high-rolloffs respectively (and also a large bass-hump for the 650).
I suspect these come from peoples tastes - the grado/ATH colour in the mids, and the sennheiser high roll-off even though they might not strictly be accurate. Could also be overspill from the other mainstream DT models that are popular around here (770 and 990) which IMO suffer from being bright and having recessed mids or indeed from a slightly cold presentation from an SS amp.

[Donald North]

I got on loan for Can Jam a set of DT990/250 ohm, DT990/600 ohm, DT880/250 ohm, and DT880/600 ohm.

The DT990/250 ohm have the strongest bass and treble - too much for my taste. The DT880/250 ohm has leaner bass and better treble balance, blending well with the mids. However I find it somewhat proper/uptight and not as engaging emotionally as my DT931s. The DT880/600 ohm continues this presentation further by having less vocal presence.

Of the group, I find the DT990/600 ohm and DT880/250 ohm as my favorites, being similarly engaging, drawing me into the music, capturing my attention, and wanting to listen more.

As for the AKG line, I prefer the K601 over the K701. I don't hear the magic in the K701 and would rather listen to the K601 or the DT990/600 ohm.

[mike1127]

Always fascinating how we can describe the same headphone in such different ways, depending on the context (what music are we listening to, what amps, what other headphones).

Don, you write that the DT880/250 ohm is "proper/uptight and not engaging emotionally." I think I know what kind of experience you are talking about, and I've had that experience with other equipment. However, I would never say that about the DT880/250 ohm. With the classical music I listen to, the DT880 is very warm and puts you right next to the musicians which has the potential to be very engaging. Something curious is that some people (probably not you) think of classical music itself as "proper/uptight." In other words, people who love mainly jazz and rock for the feeling of taking off the social restraints can be very conscious that classical comes from a tradition of entertaining royalty.

Can you say more about this "magic" that the K601 has (lacking in the K701)? I'm interested to hear the K701--in spite of the K701 so commonly described as "clinical", I suspect that this is a code word to describe a slightly bright and lean tonal balance, but that with the right source and amp the K701 might just have the potential to convey great beauty and have a smooth articulation of piano attacks.

I have a theory why some people think of the DT880 as bright, and some as rolled-off. In the DT880 I hear a kind of "sizzle" on strings and brass---they increase energy in the sibilance region, but not in a harsh way at all. It's a soft and glowing presentation of the "sizzle potential" in strings and brass. At the same time, they sound a bit rolled off to me above the sibilance region. So in other words, I think they have a peak around 6-8KHz and are rolled off above 10KHz. So whether you think they are "bright" or "rolled-off" depends on the kind of music you listen to, and what its spectral content is. If your music has a lot of energy at 8KHz it will sound bright on the DT880. If its high-frequency energy is concentrated above that, it will sound rolled-off.

[Donald North]

Originally Posted by mike1127

Always fascinating how we can describe the same headphone in such different ways, depending on the context (what music are we listening to, what amps, what other headphones).

Don, you write that the DT880/250 ohm is "proper/uptight and not engaging emotionally." I think I know what kind of experience you are talking about, and I've had that experience with other equipment. However, I would never say that about the DT880/250 ohm. With the classical music I listen to, the DT880 is very warm and puts you right next to the musicians which has the potential to be very engaging. Something curious is that some people (probably not you) think of classical music itself as "proper/uptight." In other words, people who love mainly jazz and rock for the feeling of taking off the social restraints can be very conscious that classical comes from a tradition of entertaining royalty.

Can you say more about this "magic" that the K601 has (lacking in the K701)? I'm interested to hear the K701--in spite of the K701 so commonly described as "clinical", I suspect that this is a code word to describe a slightly bright and lean tonal balance...

I just compared again the DT880/250 ohm vs DT880/600 ohm vs DT990/600 ohm vs DT931/250 ohm.

When I listen to the DT880/250 ohm, my immediate feeling is it sounds impartial and unemotional. I hear mostly midrange and treble, both of which are clean and detailed. There is midrange presence but not as much as with my DT931s. Bass sounds lean and overdamped and lower in level than the mids and treble. The overall sound reminds me of a sealed box 6" two way minimonitor speaker.

The DT880/600 ohm is similar to the 250 ohm version but has less vocal presence, making it a "flatter" sounding and less engaging to me.

Compared to the DT880/250 ohm, DT990/600 ohm's midrange is recessed a bit putting vocals further back in the mix. Midbass is a little stronger. Just above the midrange there is some treble emphasis. It's probably about the same level as the DT880/250 ohm but because the vocals are recessed a bit, you now hear this.

As mentioned in a previous thread, someone compared the physical assembly of the DT880 with DT990. It seems they use the same transducer and vary in the amount of damping with the DT880 having more than the DT990.

Hearing these 2 models, I can visualize their differences with a graphic equalizer with their respective regions of emphasis and de-emphasis.

The DT931 has similar bass as the DT880/250 ohm but has more midrange presence, making vocals forward in the mix and sound more engaging. I personally like vocals that sound like "you are there" and have that natural clarity.

When I've heard the K701 on my amp, it is also clean and detailed with similar "matter of fact" presentation as the DT880 but even less engaging. It's like a machine is playing the notes without emotion or expression. When I compared the K701 to my DT931s, I found the beyers immediately better and more engaging - my friend who owns the K701s commented similarly. He was disappointed to hear its an older model no longer available. The K601 has more of that "you are there" magic than the K701.