More turntable questions (long post)

[Jigglybootch]

I have spent the last few hours listening to some of my father's old records on a 26 year-old Micro Seiki DD-24 turntable. It's a direct drive table and has auto return. This turntable has pretty much been sitting in the attic for the last 15 years or so. I dug it out, along with an old Yamaha C-45 preamp, hooked everything together, and played a bunch of old records, as well as my recently acquired copy of Bruce Springsteen's "Devils And Dust."

I was surprised. The turntable, IMO, sounded great overall. Granted, some of the records were a bit dusty, and the stylus wasn't actually attached to the cartridge when I found the turntable (long story), but in any case, the records sounded great, save for some crackly distortion during some complex musical passages. I attribute the distortion mostly to the age and state of the turntable/cartridge.

As I'm sure you know, I am very much excited by the prospect of getting a Music Hall MMF-5. From what I've calculated, such a turntable will fit into my budget. However, should things not work out the way I planned, I may be forced to go with a less expensive turntable, the Goldring GR-1 being my choice (unless you know of something better in that price range).

Here's my question. I think the old Micro Seiki sounds great for the most part. My father says he paid "a couple hundred bucks" for this table, which I estimate he purchased in 1979. What I'm wondering is, should I be forced to go with the GR-1, would this still be an improvement over the old Micro Seiki? I don't know how good the turntables of 1979 were, as I wasn't born until 1983. Would something like the GR-1, a ~$400 turntable from 2005 be substantially better than a ~$300 turntable from 1979?

This may sound like a stupid question, but as far as I'm concerned, if the GR-1 is substantially better than the Micro Seiki, I'll be happy, as I'm already quite pleased with the Micro Seiki, save for the occasional distortion and the fact that it's pretty much on its death bed.

Sorry about the length of this post, but I'm just trying to get a good idea about what I'm getting myself into. Frankly, I'm very easy to please. If I upgrade and it's better than what I had, then I'll be ecstatic, so long as I don't hear anything better than what I've upgraded to (which won't likely happen, as I'm the only person amongst my family and friends that's crazy enough to invest in a turntable in the age of digital). In the end, I just don't want to pay too much money when I would've been just as happy with something less expensive.

I probably should've mentioned that this question is for Todd, or for anyone else that wants to answer, but I figured since I posted it in his forum, it was pretty evident who this was addressed to.

[fewtch]

Originally Posted by Jigglybootch

Here's my question. I think the old Micro Seiki sounds great for the most part. My father says he paid "a couple hundred bucks" for this table, which I estimate he purchased in 1979. What I'm wondering is, should I be forced to go with the GR-1, would this still be an improvement over the old Micro Seiki? I don't know how good the turntables of 1979 were, as I wasn't born until 1983. Would something like the GR-1, a ~$400 turntable from 2005 be substantially better than a ~$300 turntable from 1979?

It isn't only price that counts. Direct drive and auto return are both sound quality killers to one extent or another, although it depends on how they're implemented. A table on its last legs will likely give you hassles down the line. I'd say go for the GR-1 or MMF-5 if you really intend to get into vinyl seriously. Or get a good cartridge and use the Micro Seiki for awhile unless/until you start wanting better sound quality. One positive thing about direct drive is you don't need to replace the belt or clean/oil platter bearings. There may be other basic maintenance to look into (cleaning or replacing the RCA jacks, replacing the power cord, etc).

[lini]

Jigglybootch: I'm not surprised that that thingy sounds good - 'cause it really is a good table. I wouldn't be surprised if the arm of the DD-24 was in the medium heavy range, though - so cartridges for that arm probably shouldn't exceed a compliance of 10 - 15 µm/mn. That might somewhat reduce your choice of good and priceworthy cartridges compared to the MH and Goldring. But that's about the only drawback I could think of at the moment. Apart from that, I guess you can consider yourself lucky: If that DD-24 still is in good working condition (or at least can easily brought back to), I'd just mount something with a nice price/performance ratio like an AT440ML or a classic MC like a Denon DL-103 and forget about the MMF-5 or GR-1 - 'cause one would probably need to go at least one class higher in order to clearly beat the DD-24.

Greetings from Hannover!

Manfred / lini

[fewtch]

If the arm's any heavier than medium mass, the AT440ML is a bad idea... it's barely within tolerance on my Thorens TP-16.

[Jigglybootch]

As pleased as I am, I'd rather get a new turntable. Granted, a new cartridge and some contact conditioner would probably help tremendously, but the fact is that this with the Micro Seiki being as old as it is, I'd rather buy something newer that is guaranteed to last for a few years. There's no telling how much life the Micro Seiki has left. For my purposes, the GR-1 would be more than sufficient, as I don't yet have a tremendously large collection vinyl, but I'd be very disappointed if I bought it and found that it sounded no better than the Micro Seiki. That's why I was curious about how a $400 table from 2005 compared to, from what I can gather, a fairly high quality $300 table from 1979. The Micro Seiki must have been very well built, because it's obviously taken some abuse, yet it's still going strong, at least for the time being. But seeing as how I've pretty much given up on digital sources at this point, I want a nice, modern analog source with sound quality that surpasses what I've already got for a reasonable price, and the Goldring and MMF-5 seem to fit the bill, in my opinion. Once I gather a sizeable vinyl collection, then I'll think about going all-out on a really nice turntable.

I should mention that I've only heard 2 turntables in my life. The Micro Seiki (which I'm using as I type) and a Technics turntable that my dad bought to replace the Micro Seiki (which he as since sold, at least he thinks, because I couldn't find it anywhere).

[erikzen]

Originally Posted by Jigglybootch

The turntable, IMO, sounded great overall. Granted, some of the records were a bit dusty, and the stylus wasn't actually attached to the cartridge when I found the turntable (long story), but in any case, the records sounded great, save for some crackly distortion during some complex musical passages. I attribute the distortion mostly to the age and state of the turntable/cartridge.

Don't overlook the importance of a clean record. What did you do to remove the dust? Did you do any kind of wet cleaning? Some of the distortion may also be from dirty grooves.

[Jigglybootch]

Originally Posted by erikzen

What did you do to remove the dust? Did you do any kind of wet cleaning?

Nothing and no. I can only imagine how much better things would have been had the vinyl been properly cleaned.

[Mr.Radar]

If you liked the sound of that direct-drive Micro Seki I'd reccomend going for another Direct Drive table. The Technics SL-1200 MKII has all the advantages of a direct drive (accurate speed, excellent image stability and low tonal distortion) without most of the disadvantages of most DD designs (mainly the "hunting" of the inferior speed control mechanisms, which changes the TT's speed hundereds of times/second, in search of the perfect 33 1/3 RPM, which quite audibly impacts the sound). It can be had for $400 new on the Internet (Musician's Friend and ProSound and Stage Lighting both have it for that price) and is the most adjustable/tweakable new TT in your price range, as well as the most solidly-built. They also retain their resale value pretty well due to their popularity with DJs. It doesn't come with a cartridge but you could probably throw a Grado Black, Shure M97, or Ortofon Super OM-10 on it for $40-$50 which would be more than enough for now and leave plenty of upgrade room for later. I plan on buying one myself soon (as soon as I can afford it!).

[Todd]

Coming from an audiophile point of view, the direct drive tables, no matter what anyone says, are noisy and introduce a noticeable rumble into the sound from the record. I was once (a long, long time ago) a Technics owner and they are solid performers and built well BUT they do not compare to a good turntable like the MMF5 or the SOTA Moonbeam. Now those table s are a bit more expensive than the Goldring but they are really well built and sound very good for the money. The Goldring is a lightweight beginners table that performs well for what it was made to do. I can recommend it though I highly recommend waiting it out and getting the MMF5 or Moonbeam. You will not regret the extra money spent and they will last you a long time without the need for an upgrade or replacement due to it wearing out or breaking.
Record cleaning is second only to having a turntable in the first place. You can make vinyl that pops and ticks and clean it and it will sound like new. Most other noises are caused by wear from a bad or misaligned carrtridge. There are also plenty of bad pressings with sonic flaws. But dirt, dust and mold/mildew can be dealt with effectively with a good solution (I like the Buggtussel solution) and a good vacuum record cleaner ( I like VPI) . It can make all the difference in your total satisfaction with the vinyl experience.
One last note, the Technics and other DJ turntables are not made for critical listening but for play in a loud environment where the sonic flaws go unnoticed. Through a good speaker or headphone system, those flaws stick out like a sore thumb. You do not need to use a VPI HRX with a Lyra Titan (OK, that is what I use) to achieve a high quality experience. But you can serve your purposes best by getting a Turntable that will get out of the way and let the vinyl have its say. Direct drive and automatic turntables are not ideal...

Todd

[Mr.Radar]

I dunno about that Todd. I've read a few reviews of the SL-1200 MKII (written by audiophiles) which say that it meets or beats new belt-drive audiophile TTs in its pricerange (one on Audiogon reccomended it over the Rega P2). What DD turntables have you owned in the past and what model was that Technics? Tthe SL-1200 MKII was designed as a home-use table before it became popular with DJ's in the early-mid 80's. I plan on attending the 2006 TTVJ Audio Show so I'll bring an SL-1200 MKII with me (if you don't mind me bringing it) and we could compare it to the GR-1, MMF-5, Pro-Ject Xpression, etc. then. You are the vinyl junkie though and I am only a lowly vinyl wanna-be so you might be right.