Next speaker upgrade: Back to bookshelves?

[Pibborando]

So I've had my Energy C-9s for almost 5 months now, and I still like them quite a lot. When I first heard them, I was BLOWN AWAY (going from the Insignia bookshelves). Now they still are great, but more and more I find myself thinking "well, they could be a bit better in this regard". Since I'm finally working again, I've decided to go about planning the next step. I'm very much considering getting bookshelves and a nice sub, due to 1) size (the C-9s are HUGE in my small room) and 2) better sound quality for the price vs floorstanders.

I listen to or am open to most every kind of music (except for almost anything on top-40 radio stations or pop country) so the speakers should be able to handle anything well and not have a predisposition to any particular genre. Basically, be really neutral, like my DT 880s which I love. I like the C-9s overall signature, except for a few things:

1) The highs can be slightly harsh and sibilant sometimes
2) The mids feel a bit too dry and lack that effortless realism and life I've heard on higher end speakers (like the B&W CM7, oh what nice mids)
3) The mid-bass sounds a bit bloated in the spectrum and a bit boomy
4) Not much sub-bass (this is what the sub will be for though)

Now there are things that necessarily aren't bad about them, but I'd like:
1) More precise imaging and positioning (the C-9s aren't bad but I don't quite get that "close your eyes and 'see' the performers in their exact place" thing)
2) More soundstage depth (the Energy's are a bit flat in this regard)
3) Transparency, and for the speakers to "disappear" (I still feel like I'm listening to speakers and not an actual performance with the C-9s)

Okay, so it sounds like I want the best speakers there are basically, but I'm going to have to limit my budget to $1,000 - $1,200 for the pair. Used is A-Ok. Can it be done?!

I'm fairly set on the sub I want to get, which is the Hsu VTF-2 Mk 3. I don't think I need the beast that is the VTF-3, and the VTF-2 is $200 less. I'm pretty sure that will be all the sub I will need for a LOOOOONG time. Is there anything else in the $500 - $600 range that I should be looking at?

Since I hate it when I hear the sub and not the music/movie (know what I mean?) I want to be able to cross it over pretty low to prevent sound localization. Around 60Hz or something. So I'll need to find bookshelves that have a good, flat response that goes pretty low.

ANYWAY, here is what's caught my eye:
1) B&W CM1 (Demoed these; very close to what I'm after. I liked the CM7s better: richer and more prominent mid-range, but those are out of my budget unless I could find them used) - $900 new
2) Paradigm Studio 20 (I should demo these since they're in my area) - $950 new
3) Paradigm Studio 40 - maybe within budget if found used? Do they just have more bass than the 20s or is it more qualitative than that?
4) Totem Model-1 Signature - $1,000 - $1,400 used
5) Dynaudio Audience 42 or 52 - $???
6) Dynaudio Focus 140 - $1,000 - $1,300 used
7) Onix Reference 1 - $1,200 or $1,500 depending on finish, new, $700 - $900 used
8) Von Schweikert VR-1 - $995 new, $500 - $700 used
9) Energy RC-10 - $550 new (Cheapest ones, but I've heard great things. I should go demo these)

Thoughts?

Also, I think I'm going to need a new pre-amp that has a sub out so I can put a high-pass filter on the mains to integrate with the sub the best. Any 2-channel pre-amps with sub-outs?

Thanks.

[tot]

Just my observations since I am currently running Tannoy bookshelves with two SVS subs (I can't fit full size speakes and two subs with wife pleasing factor to the space, no way.)

The integration is tricky to achieve and I was dissatisfied the result using just SPL meter. Only when I bought measurement microphone and plotted graphs I got satisfactory result.

I am not filtering the speakers and using just subs' low-pass filters. I had to go lowest possible setting around 40Hz and still dampen that frequency to max at the sub (-12dB) due to a room mode between 40Hz and 50Hz. The speakers itself go to around 55Hz but the measurement shows they go down to 40Hz in the room before rolling off.

The result is very nice and the subs are not easy to notice in normal music, but disabling them gives a feeling that something is missing. Sometimes, of course, the house really shakes (The Chemical Brothers - We Are the Night opening "ramble" for example...)

[Pibborando]

Added the Von Schweikert VR-1 to my interest list. I SO wish I had the money for the one in the FS section right now.

edit: Added the Energy RC-10s as my budget option. Reviews look really good. I'll try to demo them soon.

edit2: Added the Dynaudio Focus 140s cuz... hey I can dream.

[kunuggs]

Originally Posted by Pibborando

ANYWAY, here is what's caught my eye:
.
.
.
7) Onix Reference 1 - $1,200 or $1,500 depending on finish, new, $700 - $900 used

You can find used Ref 1's for cheaper than that. They usually go for like $600 shipped on av123.com's classifieds.

Two of the hottest bookshelf/monitors in your price range seem to be the:
- Swan d2.1se (http://www.theaudioinsider.com/produ...products_id=69) for $950
- Ascend Acoustic Sierras (http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages...SRM1/srm1.html) $800-860 depending on finish

Please search for impressions on avsforum, particularly posts by "craigsub". I hope this helps.

[tru blu]

Originally Posted by Pibborando

Added the Von Schweikert VR-1 to my interest list. I SO wish I had the money for the one in the FS section right now.

Von Schweikert discontinued the VR-1 a couple of months ago, so if you see a reasonable pair, you should snap them up. I was REALLY impressed by the Totem Model-1 Signatures I heard a year or so ago, but I ended up going for something waaayyy cheaper and haven't been disappointed: NHT Classic Threes.

[Pibborando]

Originally Posted by kunuggs

Swan d2.1se

Well, those look hot. Do they only come in rosewood? How would they compare with the Reference 1s?

[kunuggs]

Originally Posted by Pibborando

Well, those look hot. Do they only come in rosewood? How would they compare with the Reference 1s?

I'm pretty sure they only (currently) are available in Rosewood. Also, I have not heard any of the speakers I posted earlier, I am merely regurgitating info. Please check out these 2 threads: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...light=craigsub
and
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...light=craigsub

but, here's the cliffs notes version, the ascends and the swans are both amazing for the money, both better than the Ref 1s

[uzziah]

i have the c-9's too and they and they blew me away coming from axiom and polk stuff; what i really want is a fullrange driver like the jordan jx92s in some nice large beautiful horn enclosures

[Pibborando]

Those Sierra-1s sound great. Now... natural bamboo or piano black.

Also, what about the VTF-1 vs the VTF-2 Mk 3 I was originally considering? My room's pretty small, 10.5' x 12' x 8' and a 10" should generally be a bit faster (more musical?) than a 12". Would the VTF-1 be more than enough?

[penger]

It wouldn't hurt to take a look at the new B&W 600 series which is said to sound much better than its predecessor. It's also in about the same price range as you are looking.

[Bombo]

So where do Axiom Audio's bookshelves stand among this current crop (specifically the M22v2 and M3 v2)?. They have absolutely **RAVE** reviews all over the net, but they are quite and old design. Are there offerings within the same price range today which blow them away?

[Pibborando]

Another random question. I want to high pass the mains to relieve them of bass duties below 80Hz (sub's job) which should increase their clarity and the over all solidity of the sound with the sub. What would be the best way to go about doing this?

I've seen these passive filters. Do they do a good job? Or would I be better off with an active one like this Hsu high pass filter? Are there others that are better?

edit: Thought. For subs that have a stereo RCA input and output... is the outputted signal everything above whatever you set the low cutoff to on the sub? That would be handy. Then the sub could just act as the high pass filter and I could run the output from that to my power amp. Am I incorrect?

[tot]

Originally Posted by Pibborando

For subs that have a stereo RCA input and output... is the outputted signal everything above whatever you set the low cutoff to on the sub? That would be handy. Then the sub could just act as the high pass filter and I could run the output from that to my power amp. Am I incorrect?

I haven't used a sub that would filter the output signal (whether rca or speaker level), it has always been just pass through.

[Pibborando]

Originally Posted by tot

I haven't used a sub that would filter the output signal (whether rca or speaker level), it has always been just pass through.

Really? Aww...

Ok, I found these Harrison Labs FMOD passive crossovers which have a 2nd order slope. Look decent?

[gritzcolin]

Polk LSi7

They are a few years old but I have a pair and they are incredible speakers. I have sort of compared these to a few of the lower end B&W speakers at a local shop and they hands down beat B&W's entry line speakers. It might be from me only ever owning crap speakers, Bose 201/301/501 the latter two I inherited the 201 i bought for $100 thinking I was getting a hell of a speaker, and Some older Mirage bookshelf speakers. Paired up with my Sansui Au-717 these speakers sound like little miracles of polypropelene and cherry veneer. I am not real good at describing how they sound in all of your terminolgy but I know something great when I hear it, plus they can probably be had for under $400 now.