New Power Cable to consider--IeGO Power Cable

[royalcrown]

Originally Posted by Maniac

Well, have you tested the cables? I don't believe scientific community have the habit of claiming untested things as untrue either.

Absolutely, totally, completely wrong. The status quo is always assumed to be true until an observational test has been performed. Think about how absurd it would be if everything was true until proven false - I could just as easily say "the US government sunk the Titanic, and until there's proof that they didn't do it, I'm convinced they did." It's a lot more rational to go by what we already know, and then from there try to discover new things.

Originally Posted by Maniac

From what I understand, scientific community does not always start somewhere where they have a theory then test, sometimes an effect is observed and then people try to find out why.

Observations also have to be controlled. Though the usage of the word "observation" in day-to-day speech implies some sort of informal noticing of a change, the scientific meaning of the word is far more formal and meaningful (much like the word theory, when used in common speech and in a scientific context). That's the whole purpose of double blind tests - we're not looking to explain something, we're trying to observe if the difference existed at all.

Originally Posted by Maniac

Am I going to spend time to discover the physics behind this all? Nope, I'm not interested in the nitty gritty detail of how it happens, and nor do I have to resource or background knowledge to research it anyways. Does that mean it does not exist, no, it is just not scientifically EXPLAINED. Something not yet explained by science doesn't automatically cease to exist, don't you think?

You're saying one thing and meaning another. You have to realize that nobody really cares about why cables make a difference - rather, we're trying to find out whether or not cables make a difference at all. What you're saying basically amounts to "I don't care if I'm confounded, but I will establish the link anyway." There actually is a scientific explanation for what could very well be happening, and it's been reiterated over and over - the placebo effect. It's not a bad thing, but it's completely subconscious and beyond our control.

Indeed, someone could sell acetaminophen for 5,000 dollars a pop, and the pill could be EXACTLY identical to Tylenol, but if people felt that it was more effective than Tylenol at stopping pain, that doesn't mean we simply associate the change to some mysterious property inside the pill itself. Rather, what's just happened is confounding - you've attributed the change to one factor even though another factor was changed in the process (the mental state, or the placebo effect). Well, at this point we don't know what's causing the increase in efficacy - is it placebo effect, or the pill itself? That's why, in order to confirm an observation (that the pill does indeed work better than Tylenol), one must do a blind test to rule out the placebo effect altogether.

After all, by your logic (I hear a difference, therefore there is a difference), the two spots A and B are different shades of grey:



Think they are? Try printing out the image and cutting out the squares, and putting the isolated squares on a white sheet of paper. Alternatively, staring at the midway point between the two squares for some time works on some people.

[Maniac]

Well, interesting optical illusion. However, it does not apply to what we are talking about.

You have provided NO indication that you have tested the cables before, I suggest that you take a few weeks to try different cables out, and have the cable properly burned-in before continuing on the discussion.


How do you know the tests other people have conducted are not controlled so that the person listening does not have the knowledge of what cable is in use? Or are you arrogantly believe that all tested conducted by people who found that there is a difference is flawed, without even verifying that they are flawed or not?


I have experience with observers not knowing if there's ANY change done at all, and they accurately identified that the performance improved. Sometimes their comment wasn't even solicited, some of the times they just noted that the overall sound has improved while they are passing by the stereo setup. When I'm testing, I always made sure that the person who were listening have NO knowledge of what cable is in use. Hell, there's a mass of cables there that look quite similar, I won't be able to tell even unless I look at the tiny label on the plug itself.


Now then, can you try it out yourself and find out yourself if it actually made a difference before disputing it all as false? Please don't use equiptments that doesn't have a swappable cable when you do try it out, and of course, often the better the equipment, the more effect that the cable will be able to project.

[royalcrown]

Originally Posted by Maniac

Well, interesting optical illusion. However, it does not apply to what we are talking about.

It has everything to do with the discussion. You think there's a difference between power cables because you hear a difference. Most people would think there's a difference between those two squares because they see a difference. Too bad there isn't one. I don't really see how I can show the parallel more plainly - it's pretty analogous.

Originally Posted by Maniac

You have provided NO indication that you have tested the cables before, I suggest that you take a few weeks to try different cables out, and have the cable properly burned-in before continuing on the discussion.

I don't need to pull a cow's tail while standing behind it to know it's a bad idea, even if all of my friends tell me it's a sweet idea (stole that from a drug-free ad). Looking before leaping is a pretty sound principle to follow in general.

Originally Posted by Maniac

How do you know the tests other people have conducted are not controlled so that the person listening does not have the knowledge of what cable is in use? Or are you arrogantly believe that all tested conducted by people who found that there is a difference is flawed, without even verifying that they are flawed or not?

I'm not so arrogant to believe that all tests performed are flawed, but I'm not so naive to believe that something is blind just because someone tells me so on an internet forum (not to mention nobody outlines what double-blind procedure they used, let alone even calling any testing they've done "double blind" to begin with). Document the test properly, and/or submit it for peer review. Like I've said before (not necessarily in this thread), it will only take one properly conducted ABX test to convince me.

Originally Posted by Maniac

I have experience with observers not knowing if there's ANY change done at all, and they accurately identified that the performance improved. Sometimes their comment wasn't even solicited, some of the times they just noted that the overall sound has improved while they are passing by the stereo setup. When I'm testing, I always made sure that the person who were listening have NO knowledge of what cable is in use. Hell, there's a mass of cables there that look quite similar, I won't be able to tell even unless I look at the tiny label on the plug itself.

Then document it and submit it on this website (alternatively, submit it for peer review, but you'll need a more formal testing environment for it to be taken seriously). Seriously, until hard proof is shown it's purely anecdotal.

Originally Posted by Maniac

Now then, can you try it out yourself and find out yourself if it actually made a difference before disputing it all as false?

No. I have better things to spend my money on. If a properly done test demonstrates audibility, then I'll consider it. I mean, I personally would rather spend my money on something proven to work than something that's ambiguous if I'm paying top dollar (which is why I pass on homeopathic remedies in lieu of the FDA-approved stuff, even if I'm not paying top-dollar in that case).

Plus, remember, I am a proponent of the scientific model. Status quo remains until something proves it different.

[mojo]

Originally Posted by Maniac

A poor connector will actually have problems like self heating, arcing, and generally dangerous effect.

Dude, if my connector was getting hot or arching, I'd throw it away immediately and replace the cable!

Needless to say it is broken.

[Maniac]

Originally Posted by royalcrown

<snip>

Well, it appears that you are not interested in cable either makes a difference or not, but you are only interested in denying that it have any effect. The description that I wrote for my cable ARE what I and several friends heard from the cable. I was quite careful when I was writing it, and made sure that it actually can have the desired effect before I wrote it.

If you are not interested in trying anything, then why are you even here discussing? I have tested the cables repeatedly, against other know high quality cables and computer grade cables. That is also the reason why that I would pluck down the cash to actually stock a good quantity of it, because I know it works and it is not placebo.

[Maniac]

Originally Posted by mojo

Dude, if my connector was getting hot or arching, I'd throw it away immediately and replace the cable!

Needless to say it is broken.

Have you actually checked out anything that you said before? Fairly rubbish connector WILL self heat under heavy load (does not have to be extremely heavy load, something like 600W will do).

Clearly you do not know the difference between inductors and resistors... If you add resistance it will attenuate BOTH the power AND the noise to the same degree, thus the total percentage makeup of the noise component still stays the same. And poor connector does exactly that, I doubt any of those rubbish connectors can actually add any significant inductance to the power circuit.

[royalcrown]

Originally Posted by Maniac

Well, it appears that you are not interested in cable either makes a difference or not, but you are only interested in denying that it have any effect. The description that I wrote for my cable ARE what I and several friends heard from the cable. I was quite careful when I was writing it, and made sure that it actually can have the desired effect before I wrote it.

Absolutely not. I'm all for the pursuit of truth and understanding, whether that be for audio or any of my other interests. That's the exact reason I'm such a big proponent of ABX texts - if we could have a proper test that shows that power cables do in fact make a difference, that would end this debate once and for all. However, going out and buying a bunch of cables isn't the proper way to seek truth in whether or not audio cables make a difference, because I would also be susceptible to the placebo effect.

The way you word your sentences is really what irks me the most. How do you know that the cables actually produce that effect that you heard? How do you know it wasn't something else? The only way to isolate (or get as close as we can get to total isolation) the cable as being the only factor in any comparison is through blind testing, preferably ABX. It's the same thing that drug manufacturers must do in order to mitigate the placebo effect when producing drugs for FDA approval.

In fact, that's a fascinating field that really deserves more than the brushing aside that you're giving it. You'll often hear that a given drug is 88% effective compared to 43% placebo (or some such numbers). Those 43% that got a placebo KNEW they felt a difference. They could've SWORN that their fever went down due to the medication they took, when in reality they took a mostly inert pill with no therapeutic benefits at all. They KNEW that the sugar pill was the thing that made their headache go away, when in reality it wasn't the pill, but their belief in the pill that produced the desired effects by itself. The brain is a complex and powerful organ, and one would be wise not to underestimate its potential.

Originally Posted by Maniac

That is also the reason why that I would pluck down the cash to actually stock a good quantity of it, because I know it works and it is not placebo.

See above. How do you KNOW that cables work and that it is indeed not placebo? Unless you did a proper ABX text, even if you didn't know that the placebo effect was at work it could still be working in your subconscious.

[Audio-Omega]

Is someone here taking over from James Randi ?

[Maniac]

Well, because I have A/B tested them as I have said before, and I have several trusted friend that also heard it. And I'm very careful in NOT poisoning their perception before they have came to a conclusion on what they have heard during each listening session.

I know what I heard, and I know they did hear what they hear.

[royalcrown]

Originally Posted by Maniac

I know what I heard, and I know they did hear what they hear.

If you're so confident in it, then why don't you do a double blind test on it? You obviously believe in A/B testing, so what special insight do you gain by A) not matching levels and B) peeking at the labels?

[Maniac]

Originally Posted by royalcrown

If you're so confident in it, then why don't you do a double blind test on it? You obviously believe in A/B testing, so what special insight do you gain by A) not matching levels and B) peeking at the labels?

It is not necessary, since some of my friends have hearing ability so far above and beyond me, and they do not know what cable was used during the testing sessions. They agree with my conclusions completely. Yes, we both form the conclusion before we ever started talking about what we hear, so there's no way what he said was affecting what I heard or what I think I heard.

Like I said, if you are so interested, BORROW something and try it yourself. It would be some rather interesting and exhausting experience.

[mojo]

Originally Posted by Maniac

Have you actually checked out anything that you said before? Fairly rubbish connector WILL self heat under heavy load (does not have to be extremely heavy load, something like 600W will do).

600W not a heavy load!?!

That's massive. I mean, you do understand the difference between RMS power output of an amp and PMPO? 600W for a PA perhaps, not for a HiFi in a normal house.

Of course connectors, and wire for that matter does heat up a little but under very high load. If it ever happened under the kind of loads I get with HiFi equipment though, I'd definitely replace the cord as a matter of electrical safety.

[Maniac]

Originally Posted by mojo

600W not a heavy load!?!

That's massive. I mean, you do understand the difference between RMS power output of an amp and PMPO? 600W for a PA perhaps, not for a HiFi in a normal house.

Of course connectors, and wire for that matter does heat up a little but under very high load. If it ever happened under the kind of loads I get with HiFi equipment though, I'd definitely replace the cord as a matter of electrical safety.

TV, Amps, player and a few other items combined can easily reach 600W, and if you use something like a power bar, then that means all 600W will be routed through ONE outlet.


600W is not a heavy load as of yet, I'd consider 1000W or above as heavy, and oh, most hair dryer uses 700W and up.

[royalcrown]

Originally Posted by Maniac

It is not necessary, since some of my friends have hearing ability so far above and beyond me, and they do not know what cable was used during the testing sessions. They agree with my conclusions completely. Yes, we both form the conclusion before we ever started talking about what we hear, so there's no way what he said was affecting what I heard or what I think I heard.

Really? You know this? Please, everything you say will undoubtedly affect their responses, if not define them altogether. Emperor's New Clothes anyone?

[Maniac]

Well, you've been playing as someone who want to know about cable, while in truth you play your every single card trying to denying that cable have any effect at all. If you actually READ what I wrote, I made sure they came to their own conclusion before discussion even begins.

I want to KNOW what THEY think about the cable, not what I think of it, thus I DO NOT give them a single hint about the cables before or during the testing. The only thing they know is that there's something new, but they have no idea which session it will be introduced, nor where it is installed.