New Power Cable to consider--IeGO Power Cable

[ewliin]

Guys, you know this is a power cable don't you, I don't get what you expect it to do better than any other power cable.


Also, nitrogen freezes at -210C so I don't get how you can treat it with liquid nitrogen at -240C.

Yeah, spend your money on something more worthwhile please.

Seriously, it's a power cable.

[Lemmin]

Hi, I'm kind of new to this. Can someone explain what the point is of "burning in" a power cable, and what you are likely to gain from it? I can't come up with a sensible scientific hypothesis that would explain why a power cable should sound better after 150 hours of use. What physical changes are taking place within the cable?

LEM

[Maniac]

Originally Posted by ewliin

Guys, you know this is a power cable don't you, I don't get what you expect it to do better than any other power cable.


Also, nitrogen freezes at -210C so I don't get how you can treat it with liquid nitrogen at -240C.

Yeah, spend your money on something more worthwhile please.

Seriously, it's a power cable.

[Edit]Just checked with the manufacturer, please see post 80 for the details on cryo processing.

If you have not tried better power cables before, then you really should have, better contact pressure alone would provide some improvement, not to mention better material. Yeah, I used to think power cable don't matter much too, until I heard different (at the time I was anxious to prove it doesn't work too.).

[Maniac]

Originally Posted by Lemmin

Hi, I'm kind of new to this. Can someone explain what the point is of "burning in" a power cable, and what you are likely to gain from it? I can't come up with a sensible scientific hypothesis that would explain why a power cable should sound better after 150 hours of use. What physical changes are taking place within the cable?

LEM

I cannot really explain this really except to tell you what I have experienced, it does matter a lot if the cable is burned-in or not, and more often than not, the cable will work better if it had been in the system for a long time. And they can easily develop directionality too. I have used some second hand bulk cables that looked like it was torn out of a old ship or some old telecom equipments. I simply cut them to length and capped them with banana plugs for use as budget speaker wire. (cost me $50 and sounded better than the cable that I can get new at the same price, so why not?) We weren't sure what direction the cable were used, and we at the time didn't really thought too much about it, unitl we found the left channel speaker was more veiled and more or less muffled than the right speaker. We had tried tweaking the speaker angle and other checks until we were left with the speaker wires. Upon reversing the direction, both sides now sounds the same, not equal to some high priced cable, but not bad still.

How does that happen? I really have no idea, I can only convey what I have experienced.

[Maniac]

Regarding the issue with cryo treatments, I have just contacted IeGO's production guy and they have replied that since they process the bare metal wire before it is made into a cable with sleeving, they can first chill the wire and immerse it in Liquid nitrogen, then further lower the temperature with their equipment to -240C for the 20 hour processing.

They replied that they don't just use an elaborate thermos bottle for cryo treatment, instead they use equipments that can chill it down even further for better results.

They also mentioned that the name liquid nitrogen used is because they don't think anyone ever use the term "solid nitrogen" for cryo processing. Thus they still use the term liquid nitrogen for ease of recognition.

[ewliin]

Originally Posted by Maniac

[Edit]Just checked with the manufacturer, please see post 80 for the details on cryo processing.

If you have not tried better power cables before, then you really should have, better contact pressure alone would provide some improvement, not to mention better material. Yeah, I used to think power cable don't matter much too, until I heard different (at the time I was anxious to prove it doesn't work too.).

Ok, I accept the explanation for the discrepancy in the cryo treatment, it makes sense.

Regarding the power cables themselves though, I need something more than just "have you tried it?". I'll admit, I never have, and am open to hearing new ideas. But I have a degree in engineering, and am generally scientifically minded. I can't just accept things like this on pure anecdotal evidence, I need some sort of science to back this up.

Also, in your response to someone else, you start talking about your speaker cables developing "directionality". This just... doesn't make sense.

[Lemmin]

Originally Posted by Maniac

We weren't sure what direction the cable were used, and we at the time didn't really thought too much about it, unitl we found the left channel speaker was more veiled and more or less muffled than the right speaker. We had tried tweaking the speaker angle and other checks until we were left with the speaker wires. Upon reversing the direction, both sides now sounds the same, not equal to some high priced cable, but not bad still.

How does that happen? I really have no idea, I can only convey what I have experienced.

In speaker cables the flow of electrons goes in both directions equally, since its a waveform thats being sent (unlike a DC power cable where the current flows in one direction only). Therefore there shouldn't be any difference in which way around you wire the cables.

I expect the act of turning them around made a better connection between the amp and speaker and solved the problem. Its was probably just a bad connection, or oxidised cable or something.


As regards the cooling, its true that a slush of liquid and solid nitrogen is a much more effective coolant (since liquid nitrogen alone tends to flash-boil into an insulative gas when it comes into contact with hotter objects, thus reducing its effect) but maybe they should just have said "cryogenic cooling"?


I'm still not sure how burning a cable in (especially a power cable???) can help. I'm used to the world of electronics, where you get electron migration and other nasty effects in the tiny cables over time, that eventually turns them into tubular structures (rather than a solid bar as they started out), thus massively reducing their current carrying capacity, which should lead to a degradation of quality. I'm willing to believe its different in larger scale cables though.

Maniac, since you are in contact with IeGO, maybe you could ask them for an explaination as to how "burning in" improves quality? I'm intrigued as to how it works, I'd love to know whats going on inside my cables

LEM

[Maniac]

Originally Posted by ewliin

Ok, I accept the explanation for the discrepancy in the cryo treatment, it makes sense.

Regarding the power cables themselves though, I need something more than just "have you tried it?". I'll admit, I never have, and am open to hearing new ideas. But I have a degree in engineering, and am generally scientifically minded. I can't just accept things like this on pure anecdotal evidence, I need some sort of science to back this up.

Also, in your response to someone else, you start talking about your speaker cables developing "directionality". This just... doesn't make sense.

Well scientifically minded also mean that you would also accept evidences provided from experiments if it is showing clear differences like it is the case with different power cables or directionality. A lot of things in the industry is never fully understood (I'm not sure if this directionality and power cable effect is, but I'm more or less treating it as that), but still accepted as fact that it works, just no one is quite sure why.

Well if you are really scientifically minded, I'd suggest getting/borrowing some power cable on good audio equipments (maybe some of your friends or shops that you know well have them?), and hear them for yourself. And oh, high quality wall socket also matters, I have heard some electronics assembly lines were testing high quality wall sockets, and ended up retrofitting hospital grade sockets all over the place.

[Maniac]

Originally Posted by Lemmin

In speaker cables the flow of electrons goes in both directions equally, since its a waveform thats being sent (unlike a DC power cable where the current flows in one direction only). Therefore there shouldn't be any difference in which way around you wire the cables.

That's my understanding too, but it just happen to be proven otherwise right in front of my face.

I expect the act of turning them around made a better connection between the amp and speaker and solved the problem. Its was probably just a bad connection, or oxidised cable or something.

Actually, that was checked as well. I have a habit of making sure the connection is very tight, all banana plug are pristine new "wavy" type of banana plug with high quality direct plate gold, no visible defect were found. And the cable, all oxidized part are cut away, only the fresh wire that had not been touched by oxygen before were then tightened in the connector.

As for speakers, and amps, the binding post are quite fresh as well, so that's also unlikely to be oxidized.

As regards the cooling, its true that a slush of liquid and solid nitrogen is a much more effective coolant (since liquid nitrogen alone tends to flash-boil into an insulative gas when it comes into contact with hotter objects, thus reducing its effect) but maybe they should just have said "cryogenic cooling"?

That would sound like gas phase cooling, which is close to 100C higher in temperature than that they did. Anyhow, now we know how they do it, the term is more or less not an issue.

I'm still not sure how burning a cable in (especially a power cable???) can help. I'm used to the world of electronics, where you get electron migration and other nasty effects in the tiny cables over time, that eventually turns them into tubular structures (rather than a solid bar as they started out), thus massively reducing their current carrying capacity, which should lead to a degradation of quality. I'm willing to believe its different in larger scale cables though.

Well, truth be told, I'm not quite sure either. I've ordered a Cable Cooker device that should burn in the cable faster and see if there are any effects. I'll also see if my multi-meter (0.0x ohm capable) can detect any measurable difference before and after the burn-in. If not I'll see if I can steal someone's milli-ohm meter for a few minutes to check it out.

Maniac, since you are in contact with IeGO, maybe you could ask them for an explaination as to how "burning in" improves quality? I'm intrigued as to how it works, I'd love to know whats going on inside my cables

LEM

They are not quite sure either, but I have heard from someone in the power business (as in high voltage power lines) saying that when a fresh line is installed, initially it will have a bit more voltage drop, and it will slowly get better over the hours (much faster than what we would see in audio stuff) and eventually the voltage drop would become low and stable.

the info above is second hand, does anyone know of people in power generation/power transmission industry to verify if that was true or my source was making it up?

[andrew3199]

I thought a good Shielded cable was all that was needed. Shielded! Yes, anything else......

[Maniac]

Originally Posted by andrew3199

I thought a good Shielded cable was all that was needed. Shielded! Yes, anything else......

Cable also have connectors, and if those connector are not performing well, it will drag down the performance of a good cable.

As for shield, there are many types, from aluminum coated mylar to our copper foil for foil type, and braided metal type of shield, each of different property and coverage percentages.


IMHO, it not just one thing that matters, the whole thing works together to make it either good or bad.

[royalcrown]

Originally Posted by Maniac

Well scientifically minded also mean that you would also accept evidences provided from experiments if it is showing clear differences like it is the case with different power cables or directionality. A lot of things in the industry is never fully understood (I'm not sure if this directionality and power cable effect is, but I'm more or less treating it as that), but still accepted as fact that it works, just no one is quite sure why.
---
Well if you are really scientifically minded, I'd suggest getting/borrowing some power cable on good audio equipments (maybe some of your friends or shops that you know well have them?), and hear them for yourself. And oh, high quality wall socket also matters, I have heard some electronics assembly lines were testing high quality wall sockets, and ended up retrofitting hospital grade sockets all over the place.

.... Oh my god. You can believe that power cables influence the audio signal all you want, but please do not call that perception scientifically minded, because that's simply a perversion of the term and the spirit behind it. The scientific method, and its accompanied rigor, is the standard behind scientific thinking, and (suprise surprise!) one of the key elements of a sound scientific experiment is controlling and blocking - including rigorous blind and double-blind testing. Scientists never randomly go around swapping audio cables and letting their mind influence their perception of the signal. Rather, they conduct controlled and carefully defined experiments. It just so happens that double-blind testing is an excellent way to scientifically control two groups to reduce the chance of observational error.

The scientific spirit (and indeed, the scientific community at large) has never advocated running around haphazardly and claiming untested things to be true. Rather, if a phenomenon exists, the scientific process would be to carefully examine the phenomenon and ensure that it actually exists through rigorous and sometimes repeated experimentation to ensure that it actually exists before claiming it so.

[mojo]

Originally Posted by Maniac

Cable also have connectors, and if those connector are not performing well, it will drag down the performance of a good cable.

Actually, a poorer connector might perform better for a power cable.

AC power is 100-230V/50-60Hz. Even a fairly rubbish connector will have no problem with that, and even if it does it makes no odds since the equipment converts it to DC anyway. What's more, having a gold plated high quality connector is only going to transmit more noise, which of course we don't want.

Power is like the opposite of an audio signal. With audio you want maximum detail and accuracy, with the smallest to the strongest signals preserved. With power, you want just the one big sine wave, and even that isn't hugely important due to DC conversion. Anything else is just noise, which the expensive shielding on the cable is supposed to, well, shield...

[Maniac]

Originally Posted by royalcrown

.... Oh my god. You can believe that power cables influence the audio signal all you want, but please do not call that perception scientifically minded, because that's simply a perversion of the term and the spirit behind it. The scientific method, and its accompanied rigor, is the standard behind scientific thinking, and (suprise surprise!) one of the key elements of a sound scientific experiment is controlling and blocking - including rigorous blind and double-blind testing. Scientists never randomly go around swapping audio cables and letting their mind influence their perception of the signal. Rather, they conduct controlled and carefully defined experiments. It just so happens that double-blind testing is an excellent way to scientifically control two groups to reduce the chance of observational error.

The scientific spirit (and indeed, the scientific community at large) has never advocated running around haphazardly and claiming untested things to be true. Rather, if a phenomenon exists, the scientific process would be to carefully examine the phenomenon and ensure that it actually exists through rigorous and sometimes repeated experimentation to ensure that it actually exists before claiming it so.

Well, have you tested the cables? I don't believe scientific community have the habit of claiming untested things as untrue either. From what I understand, scientific community does not always start somewhere where they have a theory then test, sometimes an effect is observed and then people try to find out why.


I do not believe much in cable before, then I found out the interesting effect of cables in transmitting signals between devices. I still don't believe much in power cables then until I tried them in my system.

I have also found an interesting effect of high quality, usually cable that is made with heavy percentage of silver or pure silver, then coupled with a connector that is of lower quality when compared to the cable. The effect is rather interesting that this type of cable often exhibit less decay, and it become somewhat of an abrupt end. Interestingly this effect exhibit itself in both interconnect AND power cable.

Am I going to spend time to discover the physics behind this all? Nope, I'm not interested in the nitty gritty detail of how it happens, and nor do I have to resource or background knowledge to research it anyways. Does that mean it does not exist, no, it is just not scientifically EXPLAINED. Something not yet explained by science doesn't automatically cease to exist, don't you think?

[Maniac]

Originally Posted by mojo

Actually, a poorer connector might perform better for a power cable.

AC power is 100-230V/50-60Hz. Even a fairly rubbish connector will have no problem with that, and even if it does it makes no odds since the equipment converts it to DC anyway. What's more, having a gold plated high quality connector is only going to transmit more noise, which of course we don't want.

Power is like the opposite of an audio signal. With audio you want maximum detail and accuracy, with the smallest to the strongest signals preserved. With power, you want just the one big sine wave, and even that isn't hugely important due to DC conversion. Anything else is just noise, which the expensive shielding on the cable is supposed to, well, shield...

A poor connector will actually have problems like self heating, arcing, and generally dangerous effect.

If you want some resistance in your cable, add a resistor, use NiChrome wires for your cable, or some other means that won't set fire to your house.