Needs recommendation on electrostatic speakers....

[AudioCats]

Maybe it is time to consider the ES speakers . Can anybody give a comparsion for options under $2000, and under $1500? (just the panels, doesn't have to include the transformer and biasing).

Thanks for your input

[Uncle Erik]

Look for a used pair of Quads. Some highly restored and/or modded ESL-57s will run over $2,000, however, you should be able to turn up any number of ESL-57s or ESL-63s in your budget.

I don't know how familiar you are with the two models, but the ESL-57 has a better midrange (perhaps the best ever) and the ESL-63 is a little more balanced overall with (I think) better imaging due to the way their "rings" are driven. Further, the ESL-63 has protection circuitry, so they don't cook off the way an ESL-57 can.

Which is why I went with the ESL-63. Mine have needed a little work, but I got them for $650. I still have a hard time believing that something this good can cost so little.

[n3rdling]

Don't let the protection circuit keep you from looking at the 57. IF you know how to DIY, it should be an easy build; if you don't, I believe the board costs about 100 bucks. Also, I think later 57 models already have the board built in.

I own the 57 and don't get to listen to them as often as I'd like. From my time with them I can tell you they completely blow away any headphone I've heard. I love my Stax headphones - the O2 in particular - but as good as they are, the Quads are in another league altogether. I'm completely a midrange guy though, and the midrange on the 57 is the best I've ever heard. The extension on the ESL 57 isn't the greatest, but the midrange is so special it doesn't even matter. I rarely listen to music that needs that deep deep bass info (organs), but there isn't a song in my library that doesn't greatly utilize the midrange. I only had to hear the 57 once to know it was the sound I'm after.

[AudioCats]

thanks for the inputs, guys .

I will look into the ESL's. Are they hard to drive? requires a lot of current? present a difficult load (because of the step-up transformer)?

[Uncle Erik]

Yes, you can absolutely add a protection circuit to an ESL-57; I should have mentioned that. And the ESL-57 midsrange is supremely magical. It really grabbed me the first time I heard them, however, I'm in the slight majority that prefers the ESL-63's overall presentation. I'd say that the ESL-63's mids are just about the best available, except for the ESL-57.

No, they aren't that difficult to drive, either. A lot of people use tube amps from about 25W to 100W. I run mine off a Conrad-Johnson MV52 with a 45W output. They're a wonderful pair, and the MV-52 only cost me about $700. So the Quads and amp cost less than the HD-800; not a bad deal!

[AudioCats]

hehehe, now the inevitable question:

How does the ESL's compare with the lower end Magnepan, such as the 1.6?

[labrat]

I have a set of the ESL-57's, also a set of the Gradient SW-57 subwoofers from Finland.
I think my Gradients have the serials 47A and -B, so they were not made in large numbers!

Gradient: SW-57 subwoofer

I have two sets of the Quad 606 stereo power amplifiers, one on each side, way overpowered if turned up too high!
But there were no lack of bass either with this setup!
Too bad they are stored in a closet for the time being, this thread made me go look at them again, I think i need to do some work and get them installed in my living room again.
Once properly set up there is no speakers able to reproduce the sound like these!
But they are a hassle to set up properly!
And they take a lot of space in your listening room!

[Uncle Erik]

Originally Posted by AudioCats

hehehe, now the inevitable question:

How does the ESL's compare with the lower end Magnepan, such as the 1.6?

Good question! If anyone has experience comparing them, I'd love to know. Maggies were on my short list, but the Quads were too good of a deal to pass up. Also, I really wanted to run a tube amp () and there aren't many tube amps that will drive Maggies.

[n3rdling]

Note that the ESL 57 is a difficult load to power. It can bring a bad amp to its' knees. I had a cheapish power amp that could drive dynamics all day long, but when I tried to hook it up to the Quad the amp's protection circuitry turned off the amp everytime I played a passage with a good amount of simultaneous bass and treble info. The impedance curve looks like this:

Couple this with the fact that the sensitivity of the speaker is low, and you'll need a pretty beefy amp to run them. They take work to get going, but once you've got them properly setup it's completely worth it.

[AudioCats]

Originally Posted by Uncle Erik

Good question! If anyone has experience comparing them, I'd love to know. Maggies were on my short list, but the Quads were too good of a deal to pass up. Also, I really wanted to run a tube amp () and there aren't many tube amps that will drive Maggies.

the reason I started this thread is that my recent audition on a pair of 1.6 turned out to be kind of a disappointment. I can feel their potentials but with all that $10k electronics (which I guess can be done for $3k DIY) they are still not good enough. I think the cheap stock Xover is the main bottle neck but it will cost a lot to fix it right.

Might as well go for the legendary ESL's then, I thought.

[AudioCats]

Originally Posted by n3rdling

Note that the ESL 57 is a difficult load to power. It can bring a bad amp to its' knees. I had a cheapish power amp that could drive dynamics all day long, but when I tried to hook it up to the Quad the amp's protection circuitry turned off the amp everytime I played a passage with a good amount of simultaneous bass and treble info. The impedance curve looks like this:

Couple this with the fact that the sensitivity of the speaker is low, and you'll need a pretty beefy amp to run them. They take work to get going, but once you've got them properly setup it's completely worth it.

thanks for the info, the impedance curve looks like the ESL63's, except the 63 only goes down to 4 ohms. On the other hand..... there is a 1.5R resistor at the 63's input, that might be why the minimum impedance is, about 1.5 ohm, higher than the 57's? It might also be the reason why the 63 lost some of the 57's magic, because of the input resistor and capacitor changed the dampening factor?

[Shike]

Originally Posted by AudioCats

How does the ESL's compare with the lower end Magnepan, such as the 1.6?

I've compared some Martin Logan's with my older hybrid Maggies (SMGa) and some that use a true ribbon tweeter (model number escapes me though).

Honestly, I no longer feel a need to go higher in speakers and prefer the Maggies in a lot of respects. Namely, they play well with amps since they're a pure resistive load. They also don't suffer from pops and other issues with humidity which universally impacts electrostatics (some older maggies have problems with humidity, but recent models don't). Electrostatics also attract dust like the plague which will eventually kill the mylar (though at their size it will take a LONG time, stat headphones are of greater concern in that respect). Transformers can also be expensive and aren't necessarily consistent in their response adding more variables.

In terms of Martin Logan's vs. newer Maggies the ML's had more bass thanks to the bass unit.

The old Maggies compared to newer Maggies I didn't notice a large difference besides possibly more bass . . . I can't hear anything substantial above 17khz anyway though.

The biggest argument against Magnepan is that they will never be as fast as an ESL. I however believe in the law of diminishing returns and once again, notice absolutely no difference on that front.

the reason I started this thread is that my recent audition on a pair of 1.6 turned out to be kind of a disappointment. I can feel their potentials but with all that $10k electronics (which I guess can be done for $3k DIY) they are still not good enough. I think the cheap stock Xover is the main bottle neck but it will cost a lot to fix it right.

It could be you just dislike dipole sound too. Some people like certain cone distortion and box dynamics. The person that sold me my Maggies decided to go back to box speakers for such reasons. Have you demoed any ESL speakers? Also how well were the Maggies positioned, and what did you dislike about them particularly?

[AudioCats]

Originally Posted by Shike

It could be you just dislike dipole sound too. Some people like certain cone distortion and box dynamics. The person that sold me my Maggies decided to go back to box speakers for such reasons. Have you demoed any ESL speakers? Also how well were the Maggies positioned, and what did you dislike about them particularly?

I have plenty of electrostatic phones so I definitly prefer the dipole sound (I assume, of course ). The problem with the stock 1.6 was not the presentation, which I liked ok; it was the lack of details. Yes we can say it is plenty detailed, especially when comparing to the box speakers, but it is still not quite as good as a pair of Lambda....

On the other hand, the one set-up that gave me the similar "feel" as my HeAudio J, was the big threeway Wilson driven by a pair of Ayre mono blocks (speaker/amp combo retail for about $100K, not including cabling and source). The electrostatic phones might have destroyed my ears, I can only go electrostatic all the way now, ouch

[Shike]

Originally Posted by AudioCats

I have plenty of electrostatic phones so I definitly prefer the dipole sound (I assume, of course ). The problem with the stock 1.6 was not the presentation, which I liked ok; it was the lack of details. Yes we can say it is plenty detailed, especially when comparing to the box speakers, but it is still not quite as good as a pair of Lambda....

First thing I'd look at is room acoustics. Also, I'm not sure what you're hearing from the Lambda is actually "detail". It could just be the sound signature and how you want to perceive it.

Beyond this, consider that these are also speakers you're listening to. One the backwaves against the wall are going to reflect to fill up the room. Beyond this you're going to have mixing of the channels beyond that.

You may very well never get the "detail" of the Lambda's depending on what it is you're actually talking about.

On the other hand, the one set-up that gave me the similar "feel" as my HeAudio J, was the big threeway Wilson driven by a pair of Ayre mono blocks (speaker/amp combo retail for about $100K, not including cabling and source). The electrostatic phones might have destroyed my ears, I can only go electrostatic all the way now, ouch

Are you talking about Wilson Audio? I've pretty sure those are cone based designs . . . which may mean you dislike backwaves (inherent of dipole speakers) or link it back to the sound signature once again.

[AudioCats]

Originally Posted by Shike

which may mean you dislike backwaves (inherent of dipole speakers) .

could be.... if that is the case I probably have to audition a pair of ESL's before I can decide.

yes, it was wilson audio, I think it was the Maxx3