Cables, Power, Tweaks, Speakers, Accessories (DBT-Free Forum)Discussion of cables, power (the electric kind), tweaks, & accessories. I, Objectivist: The Objectivist Audio
Forum (opening soon)If you feel the uncontrollable urge to use the word "placebo," in
here is where you'll post (and only here). Discuss DBT all you want in
here.
At least my headphones, CD player, DAC, etc etc were all built well, and weren't straight up lied about in the marketing department. The markups were also more justified given these companies actually perform R&D and have other justified expenses. (At least more justified than VD's expenses, considering they don't actually perform real R&D).
this is not universally true as I believe I made clear in my post. Do you really think that most of the cottage industry amp makers perform wjatever you consider to be actual R&D, some do most may not. Unless you call trial and error at the customer expense R&D. Also claiming that VD does not do real R&D is a claim you need to qualify. Do they have an R&D group and does that group do research, if so they they do R&D, to better set the standard for our converstaion Wiki refers to R&D as "creative work undertaken on a systematic basis in order to increase the stock of knowledge, including knowledge of man, culture and society, and the use of this stock of knowledge to devise new applications". They may very well do that for all you know?? They may do more or less of it than most amp makers here again we do not really know.
Also yes if you buy components that are made by either large consumer audio companies or companies that market to musicians yes the profit margins are slightly thinner but I have seen 50%-100% MU on amps, speakers and sources in midfi shops. If you were to buy from a high end boutique manufacter then in most cases you are paying a higher MU, at least that has been my experience.
I do agree with your though that we as a community should refrain from statements like "night and day difference..." most cables and for that matter sources offer an incremental difference at least to these ears.
this is not universally true as I believe I made clear in my post. Do you really think that most of the cottage industry amp makers perform wjatever you consider to be actual R&D, some do most may not. Unless you call trial and error at the customer expense R&D. Also claiming that VD does not do real R&D is a claim you need to qualify. Do they have an R&D group and does that group do research, if so they they do R&D, to better set the standard for our converstaion Wiki refers to R&D as "creative work undertaken on a systematic basis in order to increase the stock of knowledge, including knowledge of man, culture and society, and the use of this stock of knowledge to devise new applications". They may very well do that for all you know?? They may do more or less of it than most amp makers here again we do not really know.
Also yes if you buy components that are made by either large consumer audio companies or companies that market to musicians yes the profit margins are slightly thinner but I have seen 50%-100% MU on amps, speakers and sources in midfi shops. If you were to buy from a high end boutique manufacter then in most cases you are paying a higher MU, at least that has been my experience.
I do agree with your though that we as a community should refrain from statements like "night and day difference..." most cables and for that matter sources offer an incremental difference at least to these ears.
Who are the cottage industry amp makers? Theres some small companies out there that build amps on existing technology, but companies like plinius, theta, NAD, krell, etc etc all have R&D thats pretty extensive
You have to realize that I'm gonna feel a lot like a Dad finally explaining to his son that there ain't no Santa. That broken hearted lip droopin' response is likely what I'm gonna get, because the truth ain't nearly as fun as the hype and the ********.
So, what's so damn neat? :-) I was hoping you would realize that this cable has nothing extraordinary to it with exception of those little tiny beads that are all over your house by now!
Originally Posted by jp11801
Also claiming that VD does not do real R&D is a claim you need to qualify.
You can find the full post of draudio in this thread. Basically, there is no speed of light, electron acceleration etc.
Who are the cottage industry amp makers? Theres some small companies out there that build amps on existing technology, but companies like plinius, theta, NAD, krell, etc etc all have R&D thats pretty extensive
agreed and thanks for the clarification, yes the above listed companies are large and without a doubt have a qualified R&D staff.
I was speaking in the context of ampbuilders in our community, many are 1 to a just a few person operations that do not have the resources for an R&D staff.
agreed and thanks for the clarification, yes the above listed companies are large and without a doubt have a qualified R&D staff.
I was speaking in the context of ampbuilders in our community, many are 1 to a just a few person operations that do not have the resources for an R&D staff.
The difference between amps and cables is vast.
For one, standard test equipment (e.g. oscilloscopes) are used and accepted as a valid means of testing them. Try to test a cable and there is wild-eyed handwaving about the illegitimacy of such tests and screams about the delicacy of one's ears. We have to take what they hear on pure faith and testimonials.
When the innards of such a product turn out to be ordinary house wiring inside a garden hose, people tend to doubt the claims and testimonials. With an amp, you can do a parts count. You can test it. Not to say every builder is on the level - there's one who charges premium prices for amps that clearly are not.
But testing is the acid test of any electronic product. Virtual Dynamics is welcome to share their R&D here, but choose not to. Draw your own conclusions. Most amp makers will rattle off their stats and talk about the circuit.
This is not so much a cost:benefit analysis of cables but a question of their legitimacy.
__________________
UNCLE ERIK Vinyl, Tubes & Grado
Orbe SE -> SME IV -> Fi Yph -> Zana Deux -> RS-1, HP-2, K-1000, HD-650, HD-600, K-501, DT48
For one, standard test equipment (e.g. oscilloscopes) are used and accepted as a valid means of testing them. Try to test a cable and there is wild-eyed handwaving about the illegitimacy of such tests and screams about the delicacy of one's ears. We have to take what they hear on pure faith and testimonials.
When the innards of such a product turn out to be ordinary house wiring inside a garden hose, people tend to doubt the claims and testimonials. With an amp, you can do a parts count. You can test it. Not to say every builder is on the level - there's one who charges premium prices for amps that clearly are not.
But testing is the acid test of any electronic product. Virtual Dynamics is welcome to share their R&D here, but choose not to. Draw your own conclusions. Most amp makers will rattle off their stats and talk about the circuit.
This is not so much a cost:benefit analysis of cables but a question of their legitimacy.
For one, standard test equipment (e.g. oscilloscopes) are used and accepted as a valid means of testing them. Try to test a cable and there is wild-eyed handwaving about the illegitimacy of such tests and screams about the delicacy of one's ears. We have to take what they hear on pure faith and testimonials.
Actually, cables are tested and modeled regularly in communication; and standards and specification are made based on these tests. For example; Cat3, Cat5, Cat5e and now Cat6 cable. USB, HDMI cables are all specified. If you check Belden, every cables that they sell has a specification. Without a specification, it will be near impossible to design any kind of equipment.
It is only the boutique cables that are not tested.
At least my headphones, CD player, DAC, etc etc were all built well, and weren't straight up lied about in the marketing department. The markups were also more justified given these companies actually perform R&D and have other justified expenses. (At least more justified than VD's expenses, considering they don't actually perform real R&D).
Mark-ups are there TO MAKE MONEY. That. is. it.
Profit.
R&D costs are passed DIRECTLY on to the retailers, and further, on to you. R&D is not part of a mark-up. it is part of the cost of operating a business. Any company has the right to charge WHAT THE MARKET WILL BEAR for any product or service. Justification of R&D costs is based on increased sales, decreased costs or a combination of both. NOT based on whether some dude endlessly posting away on an internet forum "thinks" it's justified because he can quote some measurement.
Marketing IS lying. Everything you buy has been marked up and marketed. If you don't want mark-ups, and hate being lied to, make things yourself, or don't buy anything at all. It really is that simple. If you're worried about being ripped off, caveat emptor. Due diligence is YOUR responsibility as a consumer, not the manufacturer's. For whatever reason, you seem to think that the audio world functions (or should function) outside the realm of a market driven economy. this is an incorrect assumption.
Your precious headphones are severely marked up. The numbers on the back of the box are pure marketing... 20-20,000Hz? 101dB @ 1mW? These are meaningless numbers - and you should know that given your posting history.
The actual material costs and manufacturing costs for your CD player are likely less than 1/6th the price that you paid for it. You get "ripped off" with EVERYTHING YOU BUY.
Linear Mode
