My cat tore up my Virtual Dynamics Power 3...

[crazyeyes]

I just got one of the Power 3 give aways as well and i am happy with it. Even if the build quality isn't anything impressive the difference it makes in my system is impressive. So what if it isn't using the best parts, sound is subjective and is down to the individual. Just cause a Ferrari is $200,000 doesn't mean a $65,000 corvette Z06 can't keep up with it. Just cause you go buy cost and cost of components used, and build quality doesn't mean anything in terms of sheer results. I think the cable sounds good and does its job so who cares if it is using $20 worth of supplies they figured out a way to make that sound good.

[IPodPJ]

Originally Posted by colonelkernel8

Does it matter at all that the laws of physics are on the "cable skeptics" side? Its not even a matter of "skepticism", its certainty.

Oh certainty you say? Laws of physics you say? You mind explaining to me what you know about electrons? You must know more than the quantum physicists who don't even know why electrons behave the way they do. You must know why they've observed single electrons in 5 places at once. For you to speak of such certainty, you must know something even they don't. Perhaps because you hold all the keys to the hidden doors, you should change your screen name from ColonelKernel to Master Of The Universe.

I just learned last night from NASA's website that electrons don't move more than 20cm/second. They bump other electrons out of the way, on down the line just like those little novelties you keep on your desk with the 5 steel balls suspended from wire (I probably learned this when I was in grade school but have long since forgot). Knowing this, how can you say that certain audio cables and power cords won't conduct electricity more efficiently, as well as acting as line filters?

[colonelkernel8]

Originally Posted by IPodPJ

Oh certainty you say? Laws of physics you say? You mind explaining to me what you know about electrons? You must know more than the quantum physicists who don't even know why electrons behave the way they do. You must know why they've observed single electrons in 5 places at once. For you to speak of such certainty, you must know something even they don't.

I just learned last night from NASA's website that electrons don't move more than 20cm/second. They bump other electrons out of the way, on down the line just like those little novelties you keep on your desk with the 5 steel balls suspended from wire (I probably learned this when I was in grade school but have long since forgot). Knowing this, how can you say that certain audio cables and power cords won't conduct electricity more efficiently, as well as acting as line filters?

Right, I suppose Rick Schultz does know all that our scientists don't, considering he probably has an MBA. How can you tell if a product is improving anything if you don't have a basis on which you test and measure it? Much less develop it.

[crazyeyes]

Originally Posted by colonelkernel8

Right, I suppose Rick Schultz does know all that our scientists don't, considering he probably has an MBA. How can you tell if a product is improving anything if you don't have a basis on which you test and measure it? Much less develop it.

Who cares what a meter or computer tells you about anything. My Ears are the only instrument i trust when it comes down to sound. Your are telling me if you switch from one speaker to another you can't hear a difference without a meter or computer telling you there is one? Or if you switch a cable you have to see a difference on paper for there to actually be one? Sorry but i go by what i hear.

[colonelkernel8]

Originally Posted by crazyeyes

Who cares what a meter or computer tells you about anything. My Ears are the only instrument i trust when it comes down to sound. Your are telling me if you switch from one speaker to another you can't hear a difference without a meter or computer telling you there is one? Or if you switch a cable you have to see a difference on paper for there to actually be one? Sorry but i go by what i hear.

No, because speakers actually make a very audible and very measurable difference.

[RedLeader]

I love cable discussions!

[Uncle Erik]

Res ipsa loquitur.

Anyone interested in buying a bridge? How about some land in Florida?

And thanks for the kitty pictures - very cute.

[crazyeyes]

Originally Posted by colonelkernel8

No, because speakers actually make a very audible and very measurable difference.

Here we go again with the "measurable" difference. I don't care if the difference isn't measurable all i care about is an audible difference which i and many others have heard with interconnects, power cables, and speaker cables. I am one of the most skeptic people when it comes to cables and i wouldn't have been saying this years ago. But i have tried a few cables and they DO make an audible difference.

[colonelkernel8]

Originally Posted by crazyeyes

Here we go again with the "measurable" difference. I don't care if the difference isn't measurable all i care about is an audible difference which i and many others have heard with interconnects, power cables, and speaker cables. I am one of the most skeptic people when it comes to cables and i wouldn't have been saying this years ago. But i have tried a few cables and they DO make an audible difference.

Would you be interested in buying some of my cables then? I have some Signal Cables up for sale in the FS forums. Make me an offer. At least they are made with quality.

[crazyeyes]

Originally Posted by colonelkernel8

Would you be interested in buying some of my cables then? I have some Signal Cables up for sale in the FS forums. Make me an offer. At least they are made with quality.

If i were looking to buy cables maybe, but right now i am happy with the cables i have even though they might not be built the best they sound just fine to me. Thanks though.

[gotchaforce]

heres a really expensive transparent cable no doubt... whats inside the box is magic:

[dgbiker1]

Originally Posted by colonelkernel8

No, because speakers actually make a very audible and very measurable difference.

Agreed. My background (Biomedical Engineering) isn't in this field, but seems to parallel the concepts that should be at play. Medical signals deal with more noise (1:100 SNR isn't abnormal), and need to be processed much more precisely as poor frequency response, signal processing, and noise attenuation can mean death, not poor SQ (Loved our society motto: When we mess up, you die).

If you considered the passive properties (R,L,and C) of a "high-end" and a decent power cord, then pass the signal through transformers, rectifier bridges, and capacitors to obtain your DC supply voltage, the differences between the two cords are less than negligible. The cord does act as a line filter, but hardly has any effect relative to the rest of the electronics that will affect your signal. An educated guess on the order of magnitude of (generous) improvement would be about 1x10^-5 V at the power supply output. That's before signal processing, amplifier common mode rejection ratios, output stage filters, etc- not to mention the fact that increasing the power supply voltage to an op-amp has absolutely no effect (gain is gain is gain) on the output unless you're saturating the op-amp.

The quantum mechanics of electrons are unimportant here, the RLC differences in the power cords, though they do exist, are far less than normal biological variability (including placebo and all other physiological variability, normally assumed @ 20% variability) and very far below the (well studied) difference threshold of the ear. If you can hear the difference between two power cords, it's because one is very poorly shielded/conductive.

So IME if you hear a difference, your $150 bought you a placebo effect. That doesn't mean you don't hear a difference, it just means the improvement isn't taking place in the electrical domain but in the physiological domain. And I'm only talking about about power cables, the effects of interconnects and other signal cables are orders of magnitude more significant than power cables. They actually have an effect on frequency response (power cables do not), and the noise in a signal cable is amplified (and filtered, but no filter is perfect) for interconnects, or unfiltered if a headphone/speaker cable.

[chesebert]

Originally Posted by dgbiker1

Agreed. My background (Biomedical Engineering) isn't in this field, but seems to parallel the concepts that should be at play. Medical signals deal with more noise (1:100 SNR isn't abnormal), and need to be processed much more precisely as poor frequency response, signal processing, and noise attenuation can mean death, not poor SQ (Loved our society motto: When we mess up, you die).

If you considered the passive properties (R,L,and C) of a "high-end" and a decent power cord, then pass the signal through transformers, rectifier bridges, and capacitors to obtain your DC supply voltage, the differences between the two cords are less than negligible. The cord does act as a line filter, but hardly has any effect relative to the rest of the electronics that will affect your signal. An educated guess on the order of magnitude of (generous) improvement would be about 1x10^-5 V at the power supply output. That's before signal processing, amplifier common mode rejection ratios, output stage filters, etc.

The quantum mechanics of electrons are unimportant here, the RLC differences in the power cords, though they do exist, are far less than normal biological variability (including placebo and all other physiological variability, normally assumed @ 20% variability) and very far below the (well studied) difference threshold of the ear. If you can hear the difference between two power cords, it's because one is very poorly shielded/conductive.

So IME if you hear a difference, your $150 bought you a placebo effect. That doesn't mean you don't hear a difference, it just means the improvement isn't taking place in the electrical domain but in the physiological domain.

My background (Electrical Engineering) is in this field; RLC @ DC does not define cable performance. My background does not give me the tools to understand why power cables work; need physics background.

[bigshot]

Originally Posted by IPodPJ

But they also have some of the best audio cables and cords on the market and if you actually had one you would know that.

Did you miss seeing the photos at the beginning of this thread?

See ya
Steve

[bigshot]

Originally Posted by crazyeyes

Just cause a Ferrari is $200,000 doesn't mean a $65,000 corvette Z06 can't keep up with it

I don't think that standard house wiring in a garden hose qualifies as much more than a Yugo.

See ya
Steve