Headphone Miracle!

[Hirsch]

Originally posted by DustyChalk
Um, first of all, your point is not valid, since this comparison was all done on the same amps (I compared RKV against RKV and MF against MF).

What I was trying to say in my indirect way, was that I was getting major differences at the low end while tube rolling the ZOTL.

Mine came used with JAN Philips tubes, which are every bit as good in the ZOTL as they are in the X-Can...not good at all, IMO. I've got a pair of Raytheon 12AT7's and a pair of Sylvania 6SN7GTB's that do pretty good. I've also got a pair of China Red Base 6SN7's from Upscale Audio...the verdict is still out on those.

I just won a pair of Seiman's 12AT7s on ebay to compare to the Raytheons. May the best tube win.

I was talking to a friend of mine whose father was a Ham radio operator. She's got a box of tubes in the basement, and knows at least three other people who have large collections of tubes..from radio use, so the prices may even be rational. Anything special you want me to be looking for in my journey through glass bottles?

[Dusty Chalk]

Originally posted by MacDEF
I didn't mean that it was But *do* think it's fair to disagree with you about the HD600 being "below average" in bass response. That's something we can actually measure, right? (Bass extension and flatness, that is.)

No, that's exactly what I'm taking difference to. I mean, maybe it's because people's ears are shaped differently, and their heads cause the headphones to lay on their head differently...I don't know, all I know is that that's the way I hear them.

Try doing some of those things that are mentioned on Jan's site and elsewhere here -- moving the headphones around, tilting them, putting your hands over the backs, pressing them closer to your head, etc. Notice what that does to the bass response. I am thinking that that's how different people hear different headphones.

You know, if I called the Sony's boomy, I would have to take that back -- it's not that the bass drags out, or is muddy, it's just slightly elevated to my ears. Same thing with the Senn's. It's not so much that they're "lite" on an absolute scale, they're just "lite" to me compared with what I think of as "real" ("absolute", "flat frequency response", etc.).

I'll tell you what, I'll re-run my tests and post some results. Either way (if my opinion has changed from what my memory is telling me or otherwise). Actually, I may wait until I get my DT770/250's.

[Dusty Chalk]

Originally posted by Hirsch
What I was trying to say in my indirect way, was that I was getting major differences at the low end while tube rolling the ZOTL.

No, I understood what you were saying. My point was that ... wouldn't it affect both sets of headphones the same way? By running them through the same amp, you kind of take the amp out of the picture.

I was talking to a friend of mine whose father was a Ham radio operator. She's got a box of tubes in the basement, and knows at least three other people who have large collections of tubes..from radio use, so the prices may even be rational. Anything special you want me to be looking for in my journey through glass bottles?

YES YES YES YES YES. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PCL805's or PCL85's or 18GV8 (or maybe they're 18VG8's, I forget). These are usually found in television type usages, but I would still appreciate you looking. Thanks! I'm also always on the lookout for 12AX7's and EL84's, and once I get those Radii Audio amps, I'm going to want 6DJ8's. I'm selling my X-CAN/X-PSU combo, so probably don't need any more 6922 types (other than the 6DJ8's). Or is it the other way around. Dagnabit, I keep forgetting...

BTW, MacDEF and Hirsch and others -- I am not trying to say that everyone else is wrong, I am not trying to say that mine is the only correct way of hearing things. I'm just piping in with my "vote". So please don't take this the same way as ...say... Mike Walker, stating his opinion?

[Audio-Me]

Well if you say that they sound "lite to you. I'll have to be honest, I think that most of the sound coming out of headphones or speakers sounds pretty damn fake to me compared to the real sound... Don't give me crap about the ultra high end stuff, cause they sound fake to me too. This is a straight forward analytical opinion, has nothing to do with sound enjoyment.

[Hirsch]

Originally posted by DustyChalk
No, I understood what you were saying. My point was that ... wouldn't it affect both sets of headphones the same way? By running them through the same amp, you kind of take the amp out of the picture.

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to be dogmatic either, and if my writing comes across as such I apologize. I'm strictly posting in the spirit of friendly debate, and hope I am not giving the impresssion that someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong. I'm just making the best case I can. Now back to our argument...

Maybe. However, if that were so, then an amp that got the bass right on the Senn would overpower the low end of a Beyer or Sony, yes? In which case we wouldn't call the Senn "light", we would call the others "bloated".

Nor is it clear that keeping the amp constant takes it out of the picture. Tube amps in particular are very sensitive to the impedence of the load. So, unless the cans were similar in impedence, it would be unfair to characterize them without going through a whole range of amps...

I do believe that it is possible to characterize the sound of the can However, IMO it should be done on the basis of the best sound possible out of the can (be it the best amp for its use, the best interconnect, or the best position on the head). That tells us what is possible...the limit of performance if you will. Some systems will get close to that limit, others will fall very short of it.

However, if it is possible to get strong tight bass out of a can, what do we say when the majority of available systems can't do it (this argument is not limited to cans, but applies to any component)? Do we assume that its sonic characteristics are the most common denominator (people's expectations will be met and they will be happy with their purchase and life will go on), or do we take as its sonic characteristics its best case (many people's expectations will usually fall short, and they'll wonder what people see in the POS junk we're recommending)?

My personal view is to go for the best. When I write about a component, it is what I believe about that component at that point in time. It is not meant to be an absolute, as any opinion can only be based on experience up to that point. Who knows, tomorrow I may hear a new component, or try a new tube that changes what I thought I knew about how recorded music should sound (this has happened to me twice in the short period I've had the ZOTL. That amp is just plain amazing).

Oh well, I've meandered enough, lost track of the original debate, and am way too lazy to go back and edit this post. What was the original point I was trying to make? Oh yeah, the HD-600 has great bass!

[Joe Bloggs]

I do believe that it is possible to characterize the sound of the can However, IMO it should be done on the basis of the best sound possible out of the can (be it the best amp for its use, the best interconnect, or the best position on the head).

See my woes with open-air Senn HD580s, noisy house and picky brother for the 'best sound possible' out of the Sony EX70...

If you say the 'best case' I think it makes comparisons almost moot--you take the AKG K501 and amp it with the most bass-heavy amp out there and call it perfect and everything else bloated, and you try to find just the right amp to amp *really* bloated cans like the EX70 (or do what I do ) and call everything else 'thin'...

Seems to me using a neutral source / amp combination instead should be the answer.

[Dusty Chalk]

Originally posted by Hirsch
Disclaimer: ...I'm strictly posting in the spirit of friendly debate...

Exactly.

However, if that were so, then an amp that got the bass right on the Senn would overpower the low end of a Beyer or Sony, yes? In which case we wouldn't call the Senn "light", we would call the others "bloated".

Yes, and don't think that I haven't noticed that most people find the Beyer "boomy", whereas I find it just right...

Nor is it clear that keeping the amp constant takes it out of the picture. Tube amps in particular are very sensitive to the impedence of the load.

Good point, but the Creek and the RKV in particular are pretty impervious to load. Not so sure about the X-CAN.

I do believe that it is possible to characterize the sound of the can However, IMO it should be done on the basis of the best sound possible out of the can...

Agree 100%. Which is why, when I do my comparisons, I will be using multiple amps -- to try to find the best one(s).

... (be it the best amp for its use, the best interconnect, or the best position on the head).

The "best position on head" comment was meant as an analogy. I realize there actually is a best position on head, but what I meant by that was, to some of us, headphones are going to come across differently, due to physiological differences. Like best position on head. And I don't think measuring the frequency response necessarily gives us that.

However, if it is possible to get strong tight bass out of a can, what do we say when the majority of available systems can't do it...?

I say, we do as we do here -- we qualify it. The Beyers are often described as "needing an amp". The Senns are described as "shines with an amp". The Sony's are heroes because they don't need amp. The ... what is it, the K501? ... "desperately needs a really good amp...to the point of codependence".

Your points are good ones. My point is -- and I'm not saying them to undermine yours -- that it's still ultimately subjective. Senns can have linear, flat, extended bass to a lot of people, and still seem "lite" to me -- and the intent of posting this is that I may not be alone, although it sure feels like it right now -- the Beyer can seem boomy to a lot of people and still seem just right to me, and the Sony can seem tight and extended to a lot of people, and sound elevated to me. I think I just got a fat head and maybe there are some cavity resonances that other people don't have to deal with, I don't know...