External recable pointless without internal recable?

[FraGGleR]

This question is geared towards single entry headphones. Assuming that I don't want to drill holes and go dual entry, would it make any sense/difference to recable from the single sided point of entry if I don't rewire the whole thing? I see some nice cables made for the K702's that attach to the existing mini xlr jack, but if the internal wiring is left the same, aren't the potential benefits being lost? Same for my Shure SRH840's. I recabled to the existing 2.5mm jack with some mogami mini starquad, and while it sounds great, I really don't think I gained anything over the stock cable. Could be my workmanship, could be my inexperienced ears, could be that the mogami mini starquad is overrated, or it could be the fact that the internal wiring is getting in the way.

While I am recabling my headphones myself, so won't be spending hundreds, the cost of good connectors and cable is still expensive. I want to make sure that whatever work I do will actually make a difference.

Thanks!

[Koyaan I. Sqatsi]

It has yet to be conclusively demonstrated that there are actual audible differences among cables save for instances where resistance, inductance, and/or capacitance are sufficient to cause audible differences in frequency response.

So your not perceiving any differences over the stock cable could be due to there not being any differences to perceive in the first place.

I'm afraid there are no conclusive answers for you on this one. You can continue to try different cables, go back to the stock cables, or go with different cables for reasons other than sound, i.e. look, feel, etc.

se

[FraGGleR]

Heh, I am a skeptic that wants to believe there is a difference. I will recable regardless because a) it is a fun project I want to do, b) I place a large amount of importance into aesthetics, and c) I can make cables with the ergonomics I desire (length). I ask just to make sure that if there is a difference to be heard, that leaving stock wires in the headphones themselves won't negate the other work I am doing.

Thanks for trying to answer my questions I have a long way to go in my quest for knowledge here.

[Koyaan I. Sqatsi]

Well, look at it this way. Even if there is a difference to be heard, if you're not hearing it, then it's rather moot anyway.

And there's simply no arguing with your points a, b, and c. It's all part of the gestalt and subsequently the pleasure and enjoyment that you get at the end of the day. That's what it's all about as far as I'm concerned.

Although I perceive differences with many things, even if it's all in my head (and if I had to lay odds on it, I'd have to say that most of it likely is), I really don't care. If I derive greater pleasure from it, I go with it. I'm a holistic, hedonistic, subjectivist.

I wish you all the best in your pursuit!

se

[anetode]

If you accept the pseudo-logic that recabling makes a difference, you may also choose to accept that it makes a difference regardless of the internal cabling. Or you may not. Your question refers to a dynamic fallacy which may adapt to any specific interpretation.

Of course you could add photovoltaic cells to the earcups to generate a DC voltage fed directly to the transducer. That's about as direct of a path I can think of without resorting to quantum effects.

[scootermafia]

I entirely rewired my SRH840s and installed a 4 pin mini XLR jack, then built a 4 pin mini XLR cable. It made them sound extremely nice. So, I'm happy with that.

On a more hilarious note, my Phoenix can drive them on volume step 12 of 70 with lots of loudness (requires 20-22 for HD800s balanced). The extra power afforded by balanced is nice. These little guys need my resistance adapter *looks for it*

Adapter's on. Much better bass with an extra 100 ohms. Slight loss of transparency. Hmm...

[krmathis]

I would say that it is mostly pointless.
Re-cable all the way to the transducers or skip it completely...

[scootermafia]

The way I visualize it, good wire makes a speedy connection between things, whereas cheapo wire is slow and resistive, like a bottleneck. The more of the cheapo wire you remove, the better - this is why you hear some improvement from a K702 upgrade cable, but a bigger improvement when you hardwire the K702. I don't see it as an all or nothing thing though, where any amount of bad wire in the signal path ruins the entire thing (within reason of course). We must all realize that voice coil wires are very, very small - that's just how it is with small drivers. And the signal goes through tiny signal paths nowhere near the quality of a high-end copper wire when it is inside components. Any time you are performing upgrades, upgrading short signal wires for jacks and such inside an amp, you are minimizing harm to the signal - the more things you upgrade, the better. But it's not the case that one stretch of wire that you didn't replace will ruin everything. By using an upgrade cable you're removing one roadblock, and due to its length vs. the stock cable you are taking a way a lot of harm done to the signal - but you are not done modifying the SRH840s...

[xnor]

It is worth it if the stock cable is too short/long, noisy (microphonics), heavy, unflexible etc. imho.

Those are the main reasons (for me) to do a recable anyway.

[xnor]

Originally Posted by scootermafia

The way I visualize it, good wire makes a speedy connection between things, whereas cheapo wire is slow and resistive, like a bottleneck. ... We must all realize that voice coil wires are very, very small - that's just how it is with small drivers. And the signal goes through tiny signal paths nowhere near the quality of a high-end copper wire when it is inside components.

(emphasis by me)
Yup and that's why it doesn't matter if you use pure silver or stock cable.
Except you can hear something like +- 0.01dB, hehe.

You gotta look at the ratios, it doesn't matter if a cable has a resistance of 0.07 or 0.06 ohm/m if the speakers have 32 to 64 ohm or more - except your cable is freaking long.

[Omega17TheTrue]

Originally Posted by FraGGleR

but if the internal wiring is left the same, aren't the potential benefits being lost? S

I believe so, it can act as a bottleneck, also having the same lengh for both drivers is important like in speakers.

Also it is well known that hardwiring is one of the best connection.

[colonelkernel8]

Originally Posted by scootermafia

The way I visualize it, good wire makes a speedy connection between things, whereas cheapo wire is slow and resistive, like a bottleneck. The more of the cheapo wire you remove, the better - this is why you hear some improvement from a K702 upgrade cable, but a bigger improvement when you hardwire the K702. I don't see it as an all or nothing thing though, where any amount of bad wire in the signal path ruins the entire thing (within reason of course). We must all realize that voice coil wires are very, very small - that's just how it is with small drivers. And the signal goes through tiny signal paths nowhere near the quality of a high-end copper wire when it is inside components.

No. None of this is correct.

Cheapo wire isn't "slow and resistive" in the 10 foot runs we are talking about, I doubt any level of copper wire would have anything more that 1 or 2 ohms of resistance, regardless of the price.

[Koyaan I. Sqatsi]

Originally Posted by colonelkernel8

Cheapo wire isn't "slow and resistive" in the 10 foot runs we are talking about, I doubt any level of copper wire would have anything more that 1 or 2 ohms of resistance, regardless of the price.

True.

Even plain Jane ETP copper achieves 101% IACS as far as conductivity goes.

And as for the actual resistance of any wire used, virtually all of it is due to thermal energy, i.e. photons banging into the crystal lattice, causing it to vibrate and reducing the mean free path of conduction electrons. Not even the highest purity, single crystal copper can change that.

se

[FraGGleR]

So basically, any change to the signal path can cause a measureable difference no matter how minute, however it is almost a matter of religious or philosophical ideology as to whether or not our ears can perceive such differences.

As such, I will proceed, as I have been. Recable for the fun, aesthetics, and ergonomics and enjoy whatever benefits in SQ that I may or may not perceive.

And, yes, Scootermafia, I am not done modding, and nothing in this thread would have changed that

Thank you all for your opinions!

[Uncle Erik]

Originally Posted by scootermafia

...good wire makes a speedy connection between things, whereas cheapo wire is slow and resistive, like a bottleneck.

Please:

1. Demonstrate the difference between good wire and cheapo wire with frequencies within the audio range. Any standard test equipment is fine and the results must be repeatable by others.

If we can ask the medical industry to do this, it is perfectly fair for cable as well.

2. Demonstrate that AKG uses "cheapo" wire. Again, standard test gear and repeatable results.

3. Demonstrate that the wire you plan to use for recable isn't cheapo wire dressed up in a purty package and sold to the naive. Go on. You want to make sure you're being sold the real deal, don't you?

As much fun as it is to anthropomorphize inanimate objects, you have to carefully question your premises. Otherwize, you'll get ripped off by someone wanting to turn a buck off an idiot. Perhaps there are paranormal forces at work in cables, however, the existence of scam artists is not in question.