The "truth" about different speaker cables

[Real Man of Genius]

That's all well and good but why does the "readily apparent" difference disappear as soon as you do not know which cable you are listening too?

[ert]

Originally Posted by bixby

Maybe science will let us know someday why a Stradivarius violin sounds different (better) than other violins. So far they only have theories. And if you don't think there is any difference since "they use the same stuff to make em", then ask a violin player.

As far as I've read, all of the various properties that contribute to the sound of the finest violins are well studied and understood. I do know several violin players and they have all said that the top makers of today rival Stradivarius. It's also worth mentioning that while many of the Strads are excellent, most are not. This is also an interesting piece that illustrates some of the psychological phenomena that shape our perceptions: YouTube - The Mystery of the Stradivarius 2

WRT power cables, I'd have a bit better time believing the benefit if there were ANY documented studies showing a measurement difference in the outputs of the transformer in the chassis. I find it remarkable that relatively cheap electronic equiment can have very regulated power supplies, but somehow audio equipment costing thousands of dollars struggle with things like DC voltage regulation. It's also telling that mainstream high end manufacturers choose not to include "better" cables with their equipment. If Sony and Marantz could improve the sound of their flagship models with such cables, it would only make sense for them to do so!

[bixby]

Originally Posted by ert

As far as I've read, all of the various properties that contribute to the sound of the finest violins are well studied and understood. I do know several violin players and they have all said that the top makers of today rival Stradivarius. It's also worth mentioning that while many of the Strads are excellent, most are not. This is also an interesting piece that illustrates some of the psychological phenomena that shape our perceptions: YouTube - The Mystery of the Stradivarius 2

WRT power cables, I'd have a bit better time believing the benefit if there were ANY documented studies showing a measurement difference in the outputs of the transformer in the chassis. I find it remarkable that relatively cheap electronic equiment can have very regulated power supplies, but somehow audio equipment costing thousands of dollars struggle with things like DC voltage regulation. It's also telling that mainstream high end manufacturers choose not to include "better" cables with their equipment. If Sony and Marantz could improve the sound of their flagship models with such cables, it would only make sense for them to do so!

The scientific youtube vid did point out one thing.........violins sound different. And they did not ask the violin players to guess did they? At least all the participants liked the one violin. My whole point is that wires CAN sound different, not that one should go out and spend $1500 on a power cord. I have some nice $10 ones and nice $150 ones that I like very much. As for the science in duplicating a Strad, we are not there yet, it is still being researched.

And that brings us back to the science used in audio. Remember back in the 1970s and early 80s. Receiver and amp manufacturers were focused on one of a few measurable things. THD or total harmonic distortion. And they used this measurable piece of "science" to promote the fact that their amp or receiver sounded better because thier distortion specs were lower. Funny though that many highly regarded and generally acknowledged as better sounding amps had much higher figures. eg. a cheap technics reciever .001% vs .5% for a tube amp.

But we have to remember who we are and who the manufacturers are targeting. Most people have never heard of Headfi and a large percentage of ipod buyers are perfectly content with the included buds. I don't see Apple packaging better sounding buds with their players. They surely know it would make their players sound better. They don't do it because it is all about marketing and costs. To Apple the ipod is good enough with the buds that cost under $1.00.

Read many car reviews and you will find science used in handling like g forces or times through a course. And then you will hear the reviewer say that they could have done better with better tires. Well we don't see the car manufacturers putting better performing tires on the cars, do we? It's about costs.

We see builders of tract homes that cost $300,000 use $49 toilets that clog easily when you can buy an $400 Toto. Or they use the cheapest "builders grade" HVAC units that are barely adequate when you know the homeowner will not reap the benefits or a longer lasting or more energy efficient unit. Again costs.

We who frequent here are freaks in the minds of mainstream electronics manufacturers. Go to any persons home who has a Bose home theatre and they think it is the best that can be obtained. Marketing!

If you think for a moment that Marantz and Sony or any other high end manufacturer cares about the last 10%, 5% or 1% of overall sound quality you are mistaken. They give you 90% + and that is good enough. They are not going to use a $40 cable instead of a $2.00 one when it will not be perceived by the guy hooking it up to his Bose or other mid fi system. And especially when it is being used by one of those normal people who could care less about headfi or us freaks.

Yet the bozos at Best Buy will convince them to buy a $60 HDMI cable because they are ignorant or did not try the $5.00 cable. For me the $5.00 cable does just fine.

So if you are not convinced or can't hear any benefit with different wires, consider yourself lucky to not be a freak. Then again, you are here on headfi and you don't own Bose headphones................. so you are not normal.

[bixby]

Originally Posted by Real Man of Genius

That's all well and good but why does the "readily apparent" difference disappear as soon as you do not know which cable you are listening too?

Uh, It doesn't. I can listen to the other cable but I can tell the difference, not saying you could. And that may be a good thing. I for example can't tell the difference between a $5 or $60 HDMI cable so for me it is a good thing in that instance.

[Real Man of Genius]

Originally Posted by bixby

Uh, It doesn't. I can listen to the other cable but I can tell the difference, not saying you could. And that may be a good thing. I for example can't tell the difference between a $5 or $60 HDMI cable so for me it is a good thing in that instance.

Uh, It does. Virtually everyone who claims to hear a difference fails when put to the test.

[ert]

Originally Posted by bixby

The scientific youtube vid did point out one thing.........violins sound different.

Yes, although this is not unexpected. As a musician myself (trumpet) I can tell the difference between different makes. The main point however, was that expectations about how the instrument *should* sound can affect how one actually perceives the sound. This phenomena easily applies to audiophile equipment - one hears better sound because of the expectation of better sound.

Originally Posted by bixby

Funny though that many highly regarded and generally acknowledged as better sounding amps had much higher figures. eg. a cheap technics reciever .001% vs .5% for a tube amp.

And yet the better sounding amps still probably measure better in the areas that matter like frequency response, transient (slew), etc. We can't say the same for power cords (or most cables for that matter). All I would like to see are some basic experimental results that illustrate ANY difference. This should not be hard to accomplish if differences exist.

Originally Posted by bixby

If you think for a moment that Marantz and Sony or any other high end manufacturer cares about the last 10%, 5% or 1% of overall sound quality you are mistaken.

For the department stores models, sure. But for the flagship $10k+ separates, I don't buy that. I suspect a better argument may be that they just expect people to use their own cables. OTOH, considering Sony's boner for proprietary formats, I'm surprised that they don't make people use their cables with special connectors.

[endless402]

^Denon has their own proprietary format connector, the denon link

i found it sounded very cold/mechanical vs rca interconnects between their player

[ert]

LOL, MIT are just as bad as Transparent: Anatomy of an Overpriced Cable « trapgate.net

Hundreds of dollars in markup on 50 cents worth of components. WTF?

[Bullseye]

Nice find ert!

Well, seems they had to put something (inductor) to change SQ in some way.

I'd like to point this phrase too. It is a great way for manufacturers to avoid people to open their products and find out extremely cheap equipment to have an even higher profit...

They certainly don’t look like they were built to be opened – they’re obviously made from two separate pieces of plastic, but there’s no apparent way to convince them to come apart without breaking them. And I wouldn’t want to do that because…I spent so much money on them. A dilemma.

[oatmeal769]

Can someone point to a link of real proof that there is someone - anyone - out there who can tell the difference correctly every time in a true double blind comparison. Someone who can do it any time, anywhere even with the equipment of his choosing, the only difference being the two cables tested.

I'm not saying there is or isn't, I'm just looking into both sides of the issue. I have some expensive cables, and some cheap ones.


So far, I tend to believe the science which says there is no difference between copper wire A and copper wire B. as long as they are the same length, and gauge, as well as being terminated correctly.

But if I saw someone who goes around to can jams or something and demonstrates that he can tell the difference every time, well, I'd have to believe that too.

[johnwmclean]

^^ LOL

Edit: Will you through in a million dollars?

[oatmeal769]

LOL, Funny, I was just daydreaming about quitting my day job and going around to audio meets and giving the 'Pepsi Challenge' of audio cables... "Hurry Hurry, $5 will get you $500! Just beat 'The Guesser' 10 times in a double blind test!"

Hmmm... Better keep my day gig.

[johnwmclean]

I have a little story to share whilst not directly cable related it is in the same category as audio accessories.
I had a local dealer come around to my home to demonstrate these devices called Mpingo disks, if you like you can read about them here:
The Magic of Mpingo
The way the salesman demonstrated them, immediately convinced me they did indeed improve the sound. He place one on each of my Martin Logan’s and we listened to some vocal music, he then twisted these devices slightly to tune in the vocal imaging. I was positive I could hear a difference. I bought 11 of these Mpingo disks.
I was never able to demonstrate what the sales guy did again, ever. I simply convinced myself there was a difference. I had been conned of $550 bucks, that was 15 years ago and I’m a lot wiser and more skeptical than ever.

[DoYouRight]

what the hell $550 for those? what do you think made you hear it now after retrospect?

[johnwmclean]

Originally Posted by DoYouRight

what the hell $550 for those? what do you think made you hear it now after retrospect?

In context is was an $80,000 system