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06-30-2009, 01:19 AM
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100+ Head-Fi'er
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: France
Posts: 328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odigg
Pio2001 recently posted a (don't know which one) test of a Pro-Ject headphone amp. |
If that would be the original Head-Box, it is the most useless headphone amplifier I have heard.
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Teemu
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06-30-2009, 02:18 PM
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500+ Head-Fi'er
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dayton, OH
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Bullseye - I have two standard suggestions.
1. Used eqiupment.
2. See if there is a European DIY builder who will build one for you. The amps on AMB Labs are all fantastic. The cost of a built CKKIII amp would probably be quite reasonable if you buy from somebody who builds them on a regular basis and buys parts in in bulk.
__________________
Home Rig: mp3 -v0 -> Nokia 5800 XpressMusic -> Denon D5000/D7000 (This is not a joke).
Other Cans: K240DF/2005 DT880 (250 ohms)
After trying a lot of different setups ranging from $40 to $10K and trying to be pragmatic and unbiased in my comparisons I concluded my above rig is wonderful.
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07-03-2009, 10:52 PM
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100+ Head-Fi'er
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfull
If all an amp does is boost the power that is being output, how can that possibly change the sound (all these comments about improved bass/midrange/soundstage/etc)? I am genuinely curious, because it seems to me an amp built cheaply can fulfill the same output criteria as these 400 dollar and up jobs people spend money on. Is there any sort of science behind the notion that SQ is somehow improved, other than it makes the can louder? I don't want to start a flamewar or anything, and I'm sure this question has been debated before in some way or another on this forum, but I genuinely want to know. I just got a pair of DT880s and my emu0404 usb struggles to drive them, and i'm looking at options.
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If you like the sound of the EMU 0404 USB integrated headphone amp (as I did), then you'll appreciate just about any fancy pants headphone amp.
The integrated EMU 0404 amp sounded transparent, clean, quiet, and neutral - unfortunately it just didn't have enough juice to drive the DT880s to adequate volume.
If professional amps like the Samson S, or the Presonus HP4 are good enough for the professionals making the music we listen to, they should be good enough for us. Achieving flat neutral sound through an amp has been easy to do for decades. I have the Presonus HP4 and it sound EXACTLY like the integrated Emu amp and ALMOST the same as the Little Dot MKIII amp (only the Presonus HP4 will drive a 600ohm can to deafening volume). In fact, I like the sound of the Presonus HP4 better than the LDMKIII!
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Cans:
Sony MDR-SA5000, Beyerynamic DT 880, Audio-Technica ATH-AD700, Goldring DR150, Shure SRH440, Koss KSC75, JVC HA-FX66
Home Rig:
Sony DVP-NS315 (CD Transport) > Monster S/PDIF > E-MU 0404 > Yorkville Audio Balanced IC > Presonus HP4 >
Games: Xbox360 > PA2V2 >
Portable: Sansa Connect 8GB >
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07-04-2009, 04:05 PM
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Headphoneus Supremus
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,628
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odigg
Bullseye - I have two standard suggestions.
1. Used eqiupment.
2. See if there is a European DIY builder who will build one for you. The amps on AMB Labs are all fantastic. The cost of a built CKKIII amp would probably be quite reasonable if you buy from somebody who builds them on a regular basis and buys parts in in bulk. |
Well odigg, didn't see this post before.
What is the CKKIII amp? What is the minimum AMB labs would charge for making one amp like that?
__________________
When the audio equipment takes priority over the music, the way the music sounds is more important than the sound of the music. Check my profile to see my rig.
Want to know the "truth" behind cables? Go HERE
Finished my search!! No more spending money! The Ergo 2 are keepers! Now to sell what I no longer use.
-- Team Grado-- -- Team Phonak-- -- Team Snake Oil--
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07-04-2009, 04:55 PM
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500+ Head-Fi'er
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 597
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AMB Labs does not build amps, the design them. They are designed very much like an "open source" project in that various community members contribute to project design and testing. These amps are typically discussed in the HeadWize forum, but the forums have been down for a little while.
Typically you would buy the parts and build the amp yourself. However, there are people who will build the amps for you. AMB Labs has builders listed for for the CKKIII on their CKKIII page.
If you could find somebody in Europe to build it for you, that would work better for you.
I recommend the CKKIII for three major reasons and a lot of minor ones. First, it fits all the specifications I look for when I want to buy a "transparent" amp. Second, it has a power supply on the amp board so you don't have to deal with, or spend money on, a dedicated power supply. Finally, the price if I built it myself is quite sane compared to the prices of a lot of desktops amps typically discussed on this board.
Another DIY amp designer is tangent at audiologica. Tangent's designs are really cool in that they allow for a great deal of flexibility.
If you'd prefer not to go the DIY route, two *relatively* inexpensive options are Firestone Audio and Travagans. You'd just have to find a European distributor for their products. As always, a number of people say their products are not as good as the other more expensive stuff typically discussed on Head-Fi. Considering my views on amps, you can understand why I don't take such comments seriously.
And just so we are clear on my loyalties, my first preference is to build something from AMB Labs or Tangent.
__________________
Home Rig: mp3 -v0 -> Nokia 5800 XpressMusic -> Denon D5000/D7000 (This is not a joke).
Other Cans: K240DF/2005 DT880 (250 ohms)
After trying a lot of different setups ranging from $40 to $10K and trying to be pragmatic and unbiased in my comparisons I concluded my above rig is wonderful.
Last edited by odigg; 07-04-2009 at 04:58 PM.
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07-04-2009, 05:07 PM
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Headphoneus Supremus
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,628
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Well, I actually had in mind buying something cheap -that I know will give me an excellent result-, and later when I have time and more knowledge (started with a CMoy, need to finish wirign and get better parts), I want to build a M^3, B22 or something like that.
Will check the links you gave me, and if the CKKIII is not very expensive to get for DIY I might go try it. Find it now easy to solder parts, more difficult the wiring, though 
Edit: I am going to get in contact with MisterX to see how much it would cost to make him build a CK^2IIII. Have seen the tech measurements on the AMB site and very impressive. Way better than I need will notice. Output impedance is marked as <0.5 Ohm!
__________________
When the audio equipment takes priority over the music, the way the music sounds is more important than the sound of the music. Check my profile to see my rig.
Want to know the "truth" behind cables? Go HERE
Finished my search!! No more spending money! The Ergo 2 are keepers! Now to sell what I no longer use.
-- Team Grado-- -- Team Phonak-- -- Team Snake Oil--
Last edited by Bullseye; 07-04-2009 at 05:28 PM.
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07-04-2009, 05:36 PM
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500+ Head-Fi'er
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 597
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullseye
Will check the links you gave me, and if the CKKIII is not very expensive to get for DIY I might go try it. Find it now easy to solder parts, more difficult the wiring, though |
I priced the CKKIII parts not too long ago at about $180. That was the price for "good" parts, meaning stuff like the alps volume pot. Of course, that was because I was selecting all parts with a quantity of 1 or 2. Amp builders will buy in bulk and so their parts price will be cheaper. Of course, you have to factor in labor and materials cost so the price will still be higher than $180.
__________________
Home Rig: mp3 -v0 -> Nokia 5800 XpressMusic -> Denon D5000/D7000 (This is not a joke).
Other Cans: K240DF/2005 DT880 (250 ohms)
After trying a lot of different setups ranging from $40 to $10K and trying to be pragmatic and unbiased in my comparisons I concluded my above rig is wonderful.
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07-04-2009, 05:50 PM
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Headphoneus Supremus
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,628
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Hmm, if I ask him to use "normal" parts except a good potentiometer and jack output which will be the ones to get more usage, I believe I can put the price down. Well I will have to wait for his answer to see how much it could cost me. The case as far as it is sturdy enough to last, and cheap enough I will be happy with it.
If I see the price is too high for what I am willing to spend -because what I get will get tons of use for a long time-, I will just buy one like the S·Amp (<$70 shipped) or V-Can which can be had for $160 shipped... (approx).
I know they will most likely sound the same. Basically if they have almost non-existing HUM with my HPs, and low output impedance for the use with low impedance cans (max impedance my HP have is 50 Ohm), and sound can be easily controlled for my listening levels, I will be happy
__________________
When the audio equipment takes priority over the music, the way the music sounds is more important than the sound of the music. Check my profile to see my rig.
Want to know the "truth" behind cables? Go HERE
Finished my search!! No more spending money! The Ergo 2 are keepers! Now to sell what I no longer use.
-- Team Grado-- -- Team Phonak-- -- Team Snake Oil--
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07-05-2009, 03:12 PM
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Headphoneus Supremus
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,628
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OMG! MisterX told me that the price he charges includding shipping for the CKKIII is $350. That is the hell of a lot of money!
Think I am going to stay with S·Amp/V-CAN... 
__________________
When the audio equipment takes priority over the music, the way the music sounds is more important than the sound of the music. Check my profile to see my rig.
Want to know the "truth" behind cables? Go HERE
Finished my search!! No more spending money! The Ergo 2 are keepers! Now to sell what I no longer use.
-- Team Grado-- -- Team Phonak-- -- Team Snake Oil--
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07-07-2009, 02:26 PM
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500+ Head-Fi'er
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 597
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullseye
OMG! MisterX told me that the price he charges includding shipping for the CKKIII is $350. That is the hell of a lot of money!
Think I am going to stay with S·Amp/V-CAN... |
$350 is a lot of money but the CKKIII is arguably, technically, better than a lot of the other $350 amps out there. As far as sonically better, I have no comment.
Just so you are aware, the S-Amp manual states the output impedance as 100 ohms. I'd have to measure each headphone to be sure, but you'd probably have an altered FR with even high impedance headphones. The audibility of this change is, as always, something to be tested. A measured alteration of FR does not equal an audible change in FR.
__________________
Home Rig: mp3 -v0 -> Nokia 5800 XpressMusic -> Denon D5000/D7000 (This is not a joke).
Other Cans: K240DF/2005 DT880 (250 ohms)
After trying a lot of different setups ranging from $40 to $10K and trying to be pragmatic and unbiased in my comparisons I concluded my above rig is wonderful.
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07-08-2009, 01:57 PM
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 5,934
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Why go for an amp with 100 ohm output impedance if there are cheaper alternatives with zero – under the premise that you don't believe in audible differences anyway? All of my Meier amps have (virtually) 0 ohm and sound excellent.
.
__________________
McCormack UDP-1 → Corda Symphony → Sennheiser HD 800
McCormack UDP-1 → Bel Canto DAC2 → 500 Ω potentiometer → Sennheiser HD 800
McCormack UDP-1 → Stax SRM-727II → Electrostat 1 / Electrostat 2
Foobar2000 v0.9.4.2 → Corda Opera → Sennheiser HD 800
iAudio 7 → Etymotic ER-4P (mod.) / Phonak Audéo / Sennheiser IE 8 / HD 238 Pro (each with customized EQ)
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07-08-2009, 02:45 PM
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Manufacturer: Q
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Sacramento, California
Posts: 1,232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaZZ
Why go for an amp with 100 ohm output impedance if there are cheaper alternatives with zero
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What happened to the IHF standard 120 ohm output impedance?
Are headphone manufacturers no longer designing headphones with this standard in mind?
k
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07-08-2009, 02:53 PM
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1000+ Head-Fi'er
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: In my own little world beneath the sea (aka The Netherlands)
Posts: 1,088
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koyaan I. Sqatsi
What happened to the IHF standard 120 ohm output impedance?
Are headphone manufacturers no longer designing headphones with this standard in mind?
k
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It appears to have become an "old-fashioned" standard. For example, the older Beyerdynamic models like the DT48, DT831, DT931 were still designed for 120 ohm output impedance, but I believe the more recent models are intended for 0 ohm output, and the same goes for other manufacturers as well. It's hard to be sure about this though, because for their more recent models Beyerdynamic doesn't even indicate the output impedance anymore. I was just going to mail them about this (because it got me curious as well).
__________________
I don't take myself seriously at all, so neither should you.
"The light at the end of the tunnel is often an oncoming train."Terry Pratchett (originally Robert Lowell)
"I don't know what placebo is because I have never had it, how do I get it?"Patrick82 <Gear is in Profile>
Tiny bit of feedback
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07-08-2009, 03:01 PM
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Manufacturer: Q
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Sacramento, California
Posts: 1,232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drosera
It appears to have become an "old-fashioned" standard. For example, the older Beyerdynamic models like the DT48, DT831, DT931 were still designed for 120 ohm output impedance, but I believe the more recent models are intended for 0 ohm output, and the same goes for other manufacturers as well. It's hard to be sure about this though, because for their more recent models Beyerdynamic doesn't even indicate the output impedance anymore. I was just going to mail them about this (because it got me curious as well).
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Thanks.
It would be interesting to poll the major headphone manufacturers out there and see who if any of them still design to that standard.
k
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07-08-2009, 06:23 PM
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500+ Head-Fi'er
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dayton, OH
Posts: 597
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JaZZ
Why go for an amp with 100 ohm output impedance if there are cheaper alternatives with zero – under the premise that you don't believe in audible differences anyway? All of my Meier amps have (virtually) 0 ohm and sound excellent.
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The S-amp is $50 and can drive four headphones simultaneously, all with independent volume controls. Meier does not have any amp in that price range.
__________________
Home Rig: mp3 -v0 -> Nokia 5800 XpressMusic -> Denon D5000/D7000 (This is not a joke).
Other Cans: K240DF/2005 DT880 (250 ohms)
After trying a lot of different setups ranging from $40 to $10K and trying to be pragmatic and unbiased in my comparisons I concluded my above rig is wonderful.
Last edited by odigg; 07-08-2009 at 06:25 PM.
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