Are Non-believers happy with their systems?

[JaZZ]

Originally Posted by Bullseye

No one has passed a DBT between different cables.

It would be more accurate to state that a successful cable DBT hasn't been posted in this forum yet.

Measurements with equipment more precise than our ears show us that there is no audible difference between cables.

That's not exactly true. At best they show that an audible difference is unlikely.

Conclusion: Cables claiming SQ changes are snake oil.

And we "non believers" know that using cheap or extremely expensive cables will give us the same SQ, then we will be happy listening to our rig, having spent way less money that the "believers", and knowing our hearing capabilities are the same, better or worse than theirs, but we are not leaving anything behind.

«Knowing» something usually implies some experience with the matter, not just a plausible theory.

While I congratulate the people who are happy with their (headphone) system, at the same time I feel sorry for those who don't allow themselves the joy of fine-tuning it by means of choice cables and as a result enjoying the even greater sonic perfection. The last few days I've lived with one of my homegrown copper/silver magnet-wire IC cables between the UDP-1 and the Symphony (one that I usually consider slightly inferior to my favorite). Now yesterday evening I changed it against the latter (the Silver Dragon), and immediately noticed the improvement. (And note: actually I would like my own creation to be the best.)

Try to see it this way: Even if the effect of cables is imagined, it is as reliable and consistent as if it was real. Nevertheless, apparently it doesn't come without some investment, be it DIY or financial. Also it requires some fantasy and/or an open mind.
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[Arjisme]

Originally Posted by JaZZ

That's a problematic approach: establishing rules for what's allowed to be heard and what's not.
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So let me get this straight. You've been asserting that it is sufficient to use your own ears as your test equipment but you take exception to being limited to just what you can perceive?

Originally Posted by JaZZ

Even if the effect of cables is imagined, it is as reliable and consistent as if it was real. Nevertheless, apparently it doesn't come without some investment, be it DIY or financial. Also it requires some fantasy and/or an open mind.

I'm sure you've heard of beer goggles before, no? It's the effect of how much prettier the girls seem to be toward the end of the evening at the bar. They're the same girls, but your perception of them changes as the evening wears on (typically assisted by intoxication). It's fair enough to say your perception of them is valid and that some fantasy is needed as well. But I would not take that as sufficient "truth" and choose to marry one on the spot. Not without expecting to have regrets later.

Yes, perceptions are valid. As consistent as if real? I don't agree. Particularly, I don't agree that the perception is easily transferred from one person to the next when it is based entirely or primarily on what is imagined. Also, if the difference between one piece of audio gear and the other is what is imagined, then the difference between the two pieces of kit exist not in the equipment, but in your head -- by definition. That doesn't make it bad, but it helps us understand how to set up audio systems that might please us.

[JaZZ]

Originally Posted by Arjisme

So let me get this straight. You've been asserting that it is sufficient to use your own ears as your test equipment but you take exception to being limited to just what you can perceive?

I take exception to a rule dictating what I or others be able to perceive -- without an assured scientific basis.

I'm sure you've heard of beer goggles before, no? It's the effect of how much prettier the girls seem to be toward the end of the evening at the bar. They're the same girls, but your perception of them changes as the evening wears on (typically assisted by intoxication). It's fair enough to say your perception of them is valid and that some fantasy is needed as well. But I would not take that as sufficient "truth" and choose to marry one on the spot. Not without expecting to have regrets later.

That's a good analogy -- in my view: Because cable effects don't behave like girls in a drunken evening -- their sound stays the same, or at least their difference to a reference cable is consistent (as enjoyment can indeed vary, depending on the mood).

Yes, perceptions are valid. As consistent as if real? I don't agree.

You don't believe my experiences or you don't agree with my scenario of imagination being equivalent to reality? In the latter case it's not imagination, but reality -- which is my personal favorite as well.
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[Bullseye]

Originally Posted by JaZZ

It would be more accurate to state that a successful cable DBT hasn't been posted in this forum yet.

Lets not get into different ways of expressing things (like instead of bad, "not good")

That's not exactly true. At best they show that an audible difference is unlikely.

If unlikely you want to speak about differences on the 80KHz-200KHz frequencies then be it

«Knowing» something usually implies some experience with the matter, not just a plausible theory.

Even if my experience is limited (3 types of DIY cable with different cable and connectors), that is not correct. (A very dumb example that works with this): You know that before a woman has a baby she has to get pregnant, and the baby starts growing in her belly. Unless you are a woman you will never experience having a baby in your belly, but you still know that when a woman is pregnant she has a baby in her belly. The theory is there, and you by being a man will never be able to experience that.
(I know, the example doesn't have to do anything with audio, but it refutes your saying )

While I congratulate the people who are happy with their (headphone) system, at the same time I feel sorry for those who don't allow themselves the joy of fine-tuning it by means of choice cables and as a result enjoying the even greater sonic perfection. The last few days I've lived with one of my homegrown copper/silver magnet-wire IC cables between the UDP-1 and the Symphony (one that I usually consider slightly inferior to my favorite). Now yesterday evening I changed it against the latter (the Silver Dragon), and immediately noticed the improvement. (And note: actually I would like my own creation to be the best.)

Then you are worrying for nothing If I want I can also imagine SQ changes with my cables. And in that way I can get a more "pleasant" listening experience, however at the expense of fooling myself, thinking using this or that cable is the reason my system sounds better instead of relating the changes to my mood, placebo, etc

Try to see it this way: Even if the effect of cables is imagined, it is as reliable and consistent as if it was real. Nevertheless, apparently it doesn't come without some investment, be it DIY or financial. Also it requires some fantasy and/or an open mind.
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Arjisme gave a nice answer (plus gonna go to eat lunch now)

[JaZZ]

Originally Posted by Bullseye

Lets not get into different ways of expressing things (like instead of bad, "not good")

Subleties like this can make a world of difference when you think about it (I'm speaking of my original wording).

...A very dumb example that works with this: You know that before a woman has a baby she has to get pregnant, and the baby starts growing in her belly. Unless you are a woman you will never experience having a baby in your belly...

I agree.

Arjisme gave a nice answer (plus gonna go to eat lunch now)

And how did you find my answer to his? -- However, have a good meal!
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[Currawong]

Originally Posted by Bullseye

No one has passed a DBT between different cables.

In all those DBTs, was the hearing of the subjects tested thoroughly first to determine was degree of differences they were capable of hearing? As has been posted elsewhere, for a DBT on, say, cables or other equipment to be valid, you have to eliminate completely any other possiblities, including that the test subjects are simply incapable of hearing the difference. To do that, you'd first have to demonstrate that you could obtain a positive result with the subjects using measurably different-sounding equipment. What this means is, all this audio-forum DBT tests are actually invalid as they haven't determined conclusively what was negative.

Oops.

[Arjisme]

Originally Posted by JaZZ

I take exception to a rule dictating what I or others be able to perceive -- without an assured scientific basis.

Then I think you have misunderstood what I was saying (or I you). I don't think I was advocating a rule dictating what you are able to perceive. You are free to perceive as you like. You can even tell others about your experience. However, if the difference is in you and not in the equipment, there is good reason to doubt your perceptions will readily transfer to someone else. They might, of course. But general knowledge is usually verified by objective observation whenever possible so that we can gain a better understanding about what is going on.

That's a good analogy -- in my view: Because cable effects don't behave like girls in a drunken evening -- their sound stays the same, or at least their difference to a reference cable is consistent (as enjoyment can indeed vary, depending on the mood).

For you (and I am sure others) cable effects stay the same. Is that because you are the same, the cables are the same or what? You consistently hear a difference, which is potentially useful information for everyone. Why object to attempts to verify that?

You don't believe my experiences or you don't agree with my scenario of imagination being equivalent to reality? In the latter case it's not imagination, but reality -- which is my personal favorite as well.
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You omitted my elaboration on what aspect of "consistent as real" I don't agree with:

Particularly, I don't agree that the perception is easily transferred from one person to the next when it is based entirely or primarily on what is imagined.

[nick_charles]

Originally Posted by Currawong

To do that, you'd first have to demonstrate that you could obtain a positive result with the subjects using measurably different-sounding..

Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt !

It is trivial to demonstrate the effectiveness of DBTs to detect measurable differences as long as the measurable differences fall within the range of human capabilities, I have done this myself many times. I can reliably
(10/10) detect the differences between my 4 CD players. These differences can be as low as 10ths of a db, for cables the differences I have found are however one or two orders of magnitude lower and thus rather harder to detect, so far I have not been able to find any two cables sufficiently different to do so.

I have done the same for the effect of a variety of low pass filters. Positive results at some levels and negative results at higher freqencies exactly as predicted.

[ILikeMusic]

Originally Posted by JaZZ

It would be more accurate to state that a successful cable DBT hasn't been posted in this forum yet.

Yes, you wouldn't want to proclaim that people can't fly by flapping their arms, it would be much more correct to say only that no successful attempts have been posted in this forum yet.

[JaZZ]

Originally Posted by Arjisme

Then I think you have misunderstood what I was saying (or I you). I don't think I was advocating a rule dictating what you are able to perceive. You are free to perceive as you like. You can even tell others about your experience. However, if the difference is in you and not in the equipment, there is good reason to doubt your perceptions will readily transfer to someone else. They might, of course. But general knowledge is usually verified by objective observation whenever possible so that we can gain a better understanding about what is going on.

Why object to attempts to verify that?

I don't. I'm just hesitant towards attempts to prove that all cables sound the same and to therefor establish official hearing thresholds.

For you (and I am sure others) cable effects stay the same. Is that because you are the same, the cables are the same or what? You consistently hear a difference, which is potentially useful information for everyone.

The most logical attitude from my point of view is to accept the effect as physical and real. But it isn't vitally important to me to be sure about that: It works 100% as if it was real, which is enough for my audiophile purpose. But of course there's also a scientific curiosity.

You omitted my elaboration on what aspect of "consistent as real" I don't agree with:
"Particularly, I don't agree that the perception is easily transferred from one person to the next when it is based entirely or primarily on what is imagined."

That's so logical that I didn't even consider it. Yes, of course. But bear in mind that even if the effect is/was real, there will always be different perceptions of it. Even headphones with their relatively large differences get very different ratings, and some consider the difference between the HD 600 and the HD 650 to be minimal or even nonexistent, which is hard for me to grasp.
And BTW, all my audiophile friends share my own characterisations of HD 650 cables such as Zu Mobius, Silver Dragon and SAA Equinox. Possible explanations would be mass hypnosis or herd instinct, if you will.
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[JaZZ]

Originally Posted by ILikeMusic

Yes, you wouldn't want to proclaim that people can't fly by flapping their arms, it would be much more correct to say only that no successful attempts have been posted in this forum yet.

Sorry, but that would be the wrong forum. Try any aviation site!
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[dvw]

If there is no reliable way of testing the cable either through DBT or measurement, then how do cable manufacturers test their cable to ensure they meet the quality standard?

Do they hire a test operator to listen to the cable? How do they know this person qualify? Does he have to go through a hearing test? A special DBT perhaps - a test to find the defective cable.

Or the cable guys just do it by faith and let the customer decide.

[compuryan]

Originally Posted by dvw

If there is no reliable way of testing the cable either through DBT or measurement, then how do cable manufacturers test their cable to ensure they meet the quality standard?

Do they hire a test operator to listen to the cable? How do they know this person qualify? Does he have to go through a hearing test? A special DBT perhaps - a test to find the defective cable.

Or the cable guys just do it by faith and let the customer decide.

If I had to guess I'd say they prototype cables first and let customers audition them, compare them to other cables, and offer feedback to the manufacturer.

[Wmcmanus]

I'm a non-believer. I can't hear the difference between Ray Charles and Johnny Cash. They both sound so male-vocal-ish to me...

Ehh, just kidding. This is actually an interesting thread. I avoided it for the longest time because my guess was that it would be quite dull, but there has actually been some rather interesting dialogue here.

[ILikeMusic]

Originally Posted by compuryan

If I had to guess I'd say they prototype cables first and let customers audition them, compare them to other cables, and offer feedback to the manufacturer.

Yes... 'nutty, with a hint of oak...'