Are Non-believers happy with their systems?

[ktm]

I never really understood the whole "flat earth" thing.
But there is a point when throwing money at the system does nothing.
Or you do a bunch of parallel moves where you trade one audio shortcoming
for another. All amps and cables sound different to me. But there is a point
where the wallet has to take a stand. I'm just about there. Any futher changes
will have to be approached carefully, or I'm just wasting money.
That's the case both with cans and with my speaker and amp systems.
I can go back and forth between Stax, Senns, and my 2 channel speakers
when I need a change. Then everything sounds fresh when I come back to it!

[Bullseye]

Originally Posted by nycbone

I'm done spending $ on this 'hobby'. 'Hobby' because (except for ardent DIYers), there is very little creativity involved in this hi-fi stuff. For the most part, it's throwing money at perceived problems. For many of us, it seems to be more about conspicuous consumption (well, perhaps virtual conspicuous consumption).

I joined head-fi after a number of years out of the loop to identify a handful of components to build a system to fit my tastes and budget. I've received some very good advice (both solicited and unsolicited) from members of this forum. On the other hand, many of claims about the ability to distinguish between this and that do not pass the laugh test.

I now have a reasonably-priced system that makes me happy and now it's time to move on. My 'extra' (hard-earned) cash and time are now reserved for listening to (live and recorded) music.

That's what it's all about.

Nicely put.

It is not a hobby, the hobby is to listen to music, with this or that equipment.

May i ask, nycbone, do you have a speaker system or a headphone system?
If you have the former there are many simple and cheap ways to improve the SQ of your room (you might already know about)

[nycbone]

Originally Posted by Bullseye

Nicely put.

It is not a hobby, the hobby is to listen to music, with this or that equipment.

May i ask, nycbone, do you have a speaker system or a headphone system?
If you have the former there are many simple and cheap ways to improve the SQ of your room (you might already know about)

Both.

The 'family' system is a speaker system (most components 20+ years old, including a Hafler power amp that I built from a kit) that I've tweaked over the years using a graphic equalizer and strategic placement of carpeting, furniture and the listener. The sound quality is better than average and it is used primarily for listening to LPs and watching DVDs. It works for me.

My primary system (when all I really want to do is listen and learn) is a headphone rig.

Some time ago, I worked in a psychological acoustics laboratory in graduate school (about the time I built that Hafler) and learned a lot about signal processing. Much of it wasn't/isn't practical to implement in a home setting, but it gave me a lot to think about - primarily that simple, inexpensive solutions are often quite effective in improving sound quality. It's also important not to discount that old equipment that's been in storage or collecting dust all those years.

I also learned that human auditory perception is a very difficult thing to quantify and we were just measuring responses to specific stimuli (not really sound quality). Sound quality is in the ear of the beholder. The well-seasoned listener knows what sounds good. Good can be expensive. Good can be inexpensive. Good can be dirt cheap.

I'm starting to realize that being a 'gear-head' is different from being a hobbyist.

The hobbyist learns, creates, takes apart the creation, recreates and learns something now. Listening to music helps me to become a better (though strictly amateur/hobbyist) musician. The listening gear actually plays a very small part in that process.

Collecting, trading and selling gear (any type of gear) is not a hobby. The best cure for the wants is to actually do something.

[Currawong]

I've decided to just go for it and experiment. The journey can be as interesting as arriving. My aim is for an awesome listening experience, as I love hearing the last detail in recordings. Though audio is very subjective, I do try and be realistic about things. I can be satisfied with my most basic rig, an iPod and TF10s (or my car stereo!), but I need my ultra-detailed fix of electrostats and high-end gear so I can really get into the music. It depends where I'm listening. I shouldn't really say "need", but I like the point I've reached where the music sounds clear and un-coloured.

[Bullseye]

Originally Posted by nycbone

Both.

The 'family' system is a speaker system (most components 20+ years old, including a Hafler power amp that I built from a kit) that I've tweaked over the years using a graphic equalizer and strategic placement of carpeting, furniture and the listener. The sound quality is better than average and it is used primarily for listening to LPs and watching DVDs. It works for me.

...primarily that simple, inexpensive solutions are often quite effective in improving sound quality. It's also important not to discount that old equipment that's been in storage or collecting dust all those years.


I'm starting to realize that being a 'gear-head' is different from being a hobbyist.

Collecting, trading and selling gear (any type of gear) is not a hobby. The best cure for the wants is to actually do something.

Well said again

And then I believe you have done a measurement of the acoustics of your room, etc... That is really what it is needed. As you said with inexpensive equipment you can get the most out of your system.

[TheAttorney]

Originally Posted by Publius

4. I understand the significant limitations to my current system but I am very comfortable with them and solving them is not an effective use of my money relative to the amount of benefit I would get out of it.

The mind is a very impetuous organ, and has the ability to affect its own perceptions and emotions, regardless of external events. I think that those who judge their equipment based on the emotional experiences while listening to it are vastly underestimating the complexity of their own minds - ie, that there is some kind of clear, predictable, understandable relationship between the quality of the system, and the quality of the emotions and the listening experience. Those who are desiring those OMG moments consistently from their equipment are trying to obtain what may be unobtainable, and the constant upgrade cycle is a natural and predictable result of that.

We all are in this hobby because of the enjoyment we get out of listening to music, but that does not mean enjoyment is a good metric for comparing equipment.

An interesting post (actually quite a few thought provoking posts by people in the meantime - thanks guys).

I agree about the complexity of the mind and how strongly it can skew one’s perception of their system.

I also agree that to aim for the unobtainable is a good way of losing a lot of money for minimal gain. Therefore a good compromise is to learn to accept the limitations and enjoy the level you have – and a number of posts here have reflected that.

Where I differ is that IMO many people seem to have set the bar rather low. There is no denying the diminishing returns in cost, but I have yet to experience a diminishing return in quality (e.g. my recent Transparent cable review). Others may not care, or may have more important things to spend their money on, but the sound quality bar can be raised much higher.
The bar for me is when I can, for the majority of my albums, forget the limitations and get immersed in the music. I'm pretty much there now and any gain recently I feel has been from a position of strength rather than mixed strength/frustration.

I'm still thinking about your last sentence, but now back to earning my living to pay for this addi...er hobby.

[Ashirgo]

I do not know if it has been mentioned already, but I do believe that non-believers are much more happy with their music (and then: systems) that an average audiophile, as they usually know what to do to get a good sound, they do it and are happy.

Few of them then speculate if they can get a better sound, since they are already convinced that they possess a state of the art equipment, nothing can surpass it so that there is no use looking for any improvements.

And the final consequence: as there is no use looking for any improvements, what can we do? Just sit and listen to what we have, enjoying ourselves

Correct me if I am wrong

[Currawong]

Ashirgo: I think non-believers think they need to consider fewer aspects of their system, so they might be easier to please simply changing their headphones, amp or source. However, there's just as much chance that they'll go crazy buying more expensive components, and, ignoring their ICs and power cables, not be getting as much out of their system as it's capable of delivering.

[Bullseye]

Wrong with that last assortment. ICs, power cables and such will never change SQ in either positive or negative way (always assuming they do not have oxide or defect)

And for something like speaker systems if instead of buying extremely expensive equipment they would dedicate their time studying their room acoustics, equalizing their rooms properly with less expensive equipment they can have way better results than with high-end" systems.

[moogoob]

I like my system. I understand that it's much better than what the average joe listens to, I have fun with it and that's that. Only things left for me to do are 1) service my turntable (I don't think it's been lubricated in 30 years ) and 2) maybe try a tube amp for a different flavour.

[odigg]

I support DBT. I'm happy with my rig (look at my sig) and I'm glad that I've washed my hands of caring about equipment before the transducers. It gives me much less to think about.

A warning - the rest of this post is philosophical.

What are some of the other questions associated with this thread? What is happiness? What is perfection? What is the point of music and what does music convey to us?

While these may seem like attributes of the music and equipment, they are really just reflections of one's internal mental/physical state. Music can convey emotion, energy, movement, and all those things. Perfection does not exist in the real world but many human beings have moments where they feel perfectly content and think their world is perfect. Happiness is the same. If we focus on all the defects in something we'll never be happy. If we focus on the all the positives of things we can be happy.

Is the goal of music is to convey emotion, feeling, and energy, you can be really indifferent to the equipment you have and still get everything music conveys.

I've got an expensive rig now. But in the past I've had everything from a mono clock radio to a tape based Walkman with free earbuds. Did any of these systems some how block the transmission of the emotions and energy in the music? Not at all. Did I have a less fulfilling experience when all I had was a $10 clock radio? Of course not. I enjoyed listening to music then as much as I do now. The depth of emotions and experiences I had then and have now are the same.

If the goal is simply to enjoy music any system can do that.

I think there is a far greater difference between having no music and a listening to a crappy clock radio than there is between the clock radio and a $10K headphone rig.

Audio is a hobby. The goal is for hobbies to enrich your life. If this hobby is making you miserable and is spoiling the music you listen to I suggest you step back and try to figure out what is really going on in your mind.

I suppose all this can be summed up by the popular saying "You'll be happy with your rig when you stop listening to your equipment and start listening to your music."

Ahh...I've waited a long time for somebody to start a thread topic where I could throw out this philosophical mumbo jumbo. What does that say about me philosophically?

**edit**

With all my rambling I forgot to tie in what I wrote with this questions posted by the OP.

I don't think believers or non believers are either inherently happier or unhappier, but DBT believers have arguably removed the number of variables they feel are relevant to what they are looking for. One could argue that less complication equals more happiness but it probably makes this hobby more boring.

There are all kinds of people here. Some people buy equipment, play with it, enjoy it thoroughly for a while, then change things around when they want to try something new. Even if you do support DBT, you might want to change your headphones for something new.

Then there are people who seem to be miserable. They are constantly comparing the old and new and things are only good until the newness wears off.

I think there are some major philosophical differences between the two that has nothing to do with equipment/music.

[olblueyez]

Originally Posted by Currawong

Ashirgo: I think non-believers think they need to consider fewer aspects of their system, so they might be easier to please simply changing their headphones, amp or source. However, there's just as much chance that they'll go crazy buying more expensive components, and, ignoring their ICs and power cables, not be getting as much out of their system as it's capable of delivering.

Occasional amp, source, and headphone changes caused by cable limitations is common place on this website. People just seem to cut off their noses to spite their faces because they just cant seem to get their heads around the fact that cables can allow detail, dynamics, warmth, impact, weight, pass through unaltered as compared to the rat shack stuff. Im not telling anyone they "ADD" anything but allow your equipment to perform at its best. I think that is one of the biggest misconceptions about cables and why people don't understand when someone like me says "That silver cable is bright" its merely how it passes the signal.

I feel sorry for all the people who spend thousands on equipment and use crappy stranded, poorly shielded cables to bind it all together, its a shame because it is a huge driving force in the equipment merry go round so many Head-Fi members are on. Same with tubes, people don't spend enough time finding the right tubes and then they write reviews on tube amps telling everyone about the sound signature when it should be common knowledge a tube amp with a good number of tube rolling options can sound like many different amps.

Another tragic circumstance is when some non-beleivers spend a lot of time influencing new members not to try things that may be extremely important to some of those people had they not been told not to bother. I know it works both ways, but I think we should not try to limit some else's thinking before they even get started.

Disclaimer: I don't advocate getting 300 dollar interconnects when your source is an Ipod. I think a good place to start without the benefit of experimentation is 10 percent of your system value for cables.

[Real Man of Genius]

<Off topic>

olblueyez: That is the best post you have written in this forum. When you present your argument in a decent respectful manner it is more persuasive.

I still don't believe in cables but nice post.

<As you were>

[CodeToad]

I knew a guy, who knew a guy, who was the brother of the maid for a guy who worked for the military in the 70's doing tests on new weapon systems. They were shooting rabbits and deer from a 747 with a giant chemical laser long before "Star Wars" came along in the 80's. He described how they had to measure the cable lengths and circuit paths to compensate for timing issues.

That made me think....isn't a cable just another connection between circuits? Wouldn't the best cable be another pcb with the same material used for the other circuit boards to transfer from one circuit board to another in as short a distance as possible? On the same line wouldn't the quality of the material used as a substrate, the foil, the leads and the solder also be a factor in "cable theology"?

It seems to me the only authoritative answer to the cable thing will be from particle physics and whether elctrons et al are affected by materials outside of the obvious capacitance/resistance/shielding points.

[olblueyez]

Originally Posted by Real Man of Genius

<Off topic> olblueyez: That is the best post you have written in this forum. When you present your argument in a decent respectful manner it is more persuasive.

I still don't believe in cables but nice post.

<As you were>

Thank you sir

You have to admit a lot of the non-beleivers have justified their non-beleif with all kinds of rational and without the benefit of experience.