CRYOGENIC TREATMENT

[oicdn]

Originally Posted by royalcrown

It could very well make a molecular difference that simply isn't audible (thus not changing the sound of the cable). It's easy to get caught up in changes that very well may not be appreciable in the realm of audio. Surely putting Brilliant Pebbles all over the room would ostensibly would reduce resonance from audio waves. That may or may not actually do anything to change the way a rig sounds - but simply changing a physical property won't necessarily change the sound of the system.

BTW the food analogy doesn't work because evaporation is occuring. That's why food that's not properly defrosted will taste bad - the water evaporates as it melts and the food becomes dry and nasty (or freezerburn may happen, but that's a separate issue altogether from freezing and defrosting). In fact, proper defrosting (in the fridge overnight in a closed container) will yield food that tastes just fine. However, in the case of cables, there's nothing actually leaving the cable like there is when you defrost food. So the analogy doesn't apply directly.

It was a VERY limited comparison, but the analogy of food in the closed container shows you saw my point.

The pebbles thing is a good analogy. You're not directly altering a rig, rather, you physically changing something, but everything is still the same. i.e. if you put all of the pebbles right in front of the speakers instead of just around the room. You didn't really change the sound of the rig, rather, you changed how the sound is transmitted...I dunno...I can't seem to convey it verbally. I have the picture in my head, but it's just not workin, lol.

But really, when you PHYSICALLY change the microstructure of something, although the final path of electrons is the same, the path in between point A and B changed so to speak. Kinda like taking a dirt road, but rather than staying on the beaten path, you stay a little to the left and it's not as worn down the SAME PATH so it's like a riding on an unbeaten one. Same applies to cryo treating something. It's the same item, just shifted a little. Wouldn't it yield a slightly different sound? just like riding down the same path a little to the left yielded a different physical affect.

I really have no idea whether it does or not. But I'm trying to wrap my head around how a physical microstructure of the same item changing, cannot have an adverse (positively or negatively) effect on the electrons traveling along that changed microstructure path.

[bowraboy]

So something as small as an electron (which is a sub-atomic particle AFAIK) can make an audible difference, which would affect the sound more than the much bigger things floating around in the air between the headphones and your eardrum seems highly unlikely to me.

[oicdn]

Well, it's not necessarily the electron, but electrons. Kinda like a grain of rice weighs nothing, but a ton of them is well, a ton, lol. Subatomic particles are nothing either, but in great numbers, are the make-up of an object.

Logically thinking, if you look at steel under a microscope, even a mirror highly polished piece, it looks like a bunch of valleys and craters. Whereas you take a single cryo'd piece, and it's not as radical as even the polished piece... So, if the electrons have a shorter and smoother route of travel, perhaps the signal is changed enough to alter the SQ...just a guess.

Now this is coming from an automotive background of cryo treating pistons, pins, and rods....I really have no idea of what it does in terms of conductivity or electron flow. That above example was just an assumption based on physical microscopic experience looking at pistons, etc.

[royalcrown]

oicdn, I'm not arguing that a physical change is indeed occurring. However, your statement was that you could not see how it wouldn't change the sound, which is a completely different subject. Those Brilliant Pebbles attach to the tips of interconnects, btw, right before the plug itself. It supposedly reduces the microvibrations of the interconnects... how much faith you put into that is your call.

I'm not saying that the cryo process does or does not yield audible results. I'm simply stating that physical changes don't necessarily equate to audible changes. There are plenty ways that cryo treatment couldn't affect the sound (horrible grammar, but I'm trying to quote you here).

[oicdn]

Originally Posted by royalcrown

oicdn, I'm not arguing that a physical change is indeed occurring. However, your statement was that you could not see how it wouldn't change the sound, which is a completely different subject. Those Brilliant Pebbles attach to the tips of interconnects, btw, right before the plug itself. It supposedly reduces the microvibrations of the interconnects... how much faith you put into that is your call.

I'm not saying that the cryo process does or does not yield audible results. I'm simply stating that physical changes don't necessarily equate to audible changes. There are plenty ways that cryo treatment couldn't affect the sound (horrible grammar, but I'm trying to quote you here).

Ahh...I had no clue wtf brilliant pebbles were, stupid me...I thought you were being sarcastic with "brilliant pebbles", as in rocks, lol....but I gotcha...I wasn't disagreeing with you really in any way, on any point.

Like I said, I can see where the cable debate comes in, but I'm trying to wrap my head around why some people say cryo'ing does nothing to the sound...meh...it is what it is I guess.

[Chipp]

Originally Posted by oicdn

Ahh...I had no clue wtf brilliant pebbles were, stupid me...I thought you were being sarcastic with "brilliant pebbles", as in rocks, lol....but I gotcha...I wasn't disagreeing with you really in any way, on any point.

Like I said, I can see where the cable debate comes in, but I'm trying to wrap my head around why some people say cryo'ing does nothing to the sound...meh...it is what it is I guess.

In my (admittedly uneducated) opinion, the camp that says it does nothing is wrong and the camp that it makes significant change is probably also wrong. There is a molecular change - we know that. The electrical properties of the cable, and thus the sound, change. However, are any of us actually capable of discerning the potentially very minute difference? Thats the better question.

[Listens2tubes]

If the structure is tighten and smoothed does that translate into less capacitance or resistance? Someone must have measured these properties before and after.

With tubes, I wonder if the structure of the tube is stengthened with cryo treatment? Drill bits and saw blades wear less and last longer when cryo'd.

[oicdn]

Originally Posted by Chipp

In my (admittedly uneducated) opinion, the camp that says it does nothing is wrong and the camp that it makes significant change is probably also wrong. There is a molecular change - we know that. The electrical properties of the cable, and thus the sound, change. However, are any of us actually capable of discerning the potentially very minute difference? Thats the better question.

Hah...that probably is the better question. It very well may be something only bats can hear, lol.

[majkel]

The copper's melting point is 1984.32 °F, so what does it matter for copper to be 2200 F below it's melting point for a while and then around 1900 F away during the rest of the product life? IMHO it changes nothing.

[AudioCats]

my understanding is the cryo process reliefs the internal stress of copper wire (form during the draw process). It doesn't make the copper "better" than before the draw, instead is a "repair" kind of thing.

I will try some Cryo silver wire next time and see how much difference it makes.

[BIG POPPA]

Kevin, your going to end up with 10 sets of IC's half cryo'd, half not just to change the sound of your rig. Can't wait to hear it at the next meet.

[jma790]

I am going to Cryo myself to see if I can sing better. I will tell later how it goes.

[HumanMedia]

Here is something that may relate to cryo changes in components/interconnects.

When metals are supercooled they go into the 5 state of matter - Bose Einstien condensate where the electrons are in lockstep and the material will superconduct.

So if a conductor is supercooled (cryo) and then slowly brought to room temperature is the new more relaxed state a degree closer to the superconducting state?

[John E Woven]

Originally Posted by HumanMedia

When metals are supercooled they go into the 5 state of matter - Bose Einstien condensate where the electrons are in lockstep and the material will superconduct.

I knew it!

[jma790]

Yes... Bose!! 5th state of matter!
The problem is that not all metals become superconductors with cooling.
Superconductors become superconductors with cooling.